1 2 3 4 KERRVILLE-KERR COUNTY JOINT AIRPORT BOARD 5 Special Meeting 6 Monday, November 15, 2010 7 10:30 a.m. 8 Airport Terminal Conference Room 9 1877 Airport Loop Road 10 Kerrville, Texas 11 12 13 14 MASTER PLAN PROJECT UPDATE WORKING PAPER 15 16 17 18 MEMBERS PRESENT: Stephen King, President 19 Fred Vogt, Vice-President Tom Moser 20 Mark Cowden Corey Walters 21 22 AIRPORT BOARD STAFF PRESENT: Bruce McKenzie, Airport Manager 23 Laurie DeJohn-Ermey, Executive Assistant 24 VISITORS: Perry Havenar, 25 Michelle Hannah, TexDOT Joe Kennedy, Kerrville Aviation 2 1 I N D E X November 15, 2010 2 PAGE 3 CALLED TO ORDER 4 2A. Discussion of Master Plan Update Working Paper (Perry Havenar) 3 5 Adjournment 111 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 3 1 On Monday, November 15, 2010, at 10:37 a.m., a special 2 meeting of the Kerrville-Kerr County Joint Airport Board was 3 held in the Airport Terminal Conference Room, Louis Schreiner 4 Field, Kerrville, Texas, and the following proceedings were 5 had in open session: 6 P R O C E E D I N G S 7 MR. KING: I'd like to open the special meeting of 8 the Kerrville/Kerr County Airport Board, Monday, November 15, 9 at the Airport Terminal. Call to order. Visitors forum. At 10 this time, any person with business not scheduled on the 11 agenda may speak to the Airport Board. No deliberation or 12 action can be taken on these items because the Open Meetings 13 Act requires that an item be posted on the agenda 72 hours 14 before the meeting. Visitors are asked to limit their 15 presentation to three minutes. Anyone? No one coming 16 forward. We'll move to Item 2, discussion and possible 17 action. Discussion of the Master Plan Update Working Paper. 18 Perry? Thank you, Perry. That would be Perry Havenar. 19 Havenar? 20 MR. HAVENAR: Havenar. 21 MR. VOGT: Mr. President? I -- before Perry 22 starts, if I can make a motion, I think you should wait for 23 Michelle. 24 MR. KING: You do? 25 MR. VOGT: Yes, I do, because he -- he's going to 4 1 start off -- well, that's why we're discussing it. 2 MR. MOSER: Yeah. 3 MR. VOGT: She's the person that pays for this. 4 MR. KING: Well, she said start. 5 MR. VOGT: Well, I know. But -- 6 MR. KING: All right. Only reason I was starting 7 is because Bruce said Perry -- Michelle said just get 20 8 minutes into this deal, and I'll -- 9 MR. VOGT: All right. 10 MR. KING: -- catch up. Are you discussing -- 11 MR. HAVENAR: That's specifically what she said to 12 me. She said she'd sit around with Bruce and I after this 13 and make sure she's all caught up on everything, and there's 14 no questions that she has that weren't addressed. 15 MR. KING: All right. 16 MR. HAVENAR: Like I say, she'll be here before 17 11:00, I suspect. 18 MR. KING: What are you going to discuss? 19 MR. HAVENAR: I'm going to present a synopsis of 20 what's been given to you in the first working paper. 21 MR. KING: Okay. 22 MR. HAVENAR: And just hit the high points. 23 MR. KING: Does she have a copy of all this stuff? 24 MR. HAVENAR: Yes, sir. 25 MR. KING: She's seen it already? 5 1 MR. HAVENAR: Yes, sir. 2 MR. KING: She has a copy already. What do you 3 think, sir? 4 MR. VOGT: Fine. Second item would be, before you 5 start with your Power Point, I'd like you to tell us what we 6 have in front of us. I know it says "working paper," but 7 what is the depth of this working paper? What -- where are 8 we in its process? That will come later, I'm sure, but -- 9 but I'd like -- I'd like to know what I went and spent, you 10 know, all the time looking through. What is this? I'm doing 11 this mainly for everybody here that has -- 12 MR. MOSER: Where's this piece of the puzzle in the 13 total format? 14 MR. HAVENAR: That is about the first -- between a 15 quarter and a third of -- 16 MR. MOSER: You have a schedule? 17 MR. HAVENAR: -- the project. I've got that in 18 here. 19 MR. MOSER: Why don't we just let the -- 20 MR. HAVENAR: We're going to get lined up. 21 MR. KING: Go ahead, Perry. 22 MR. MOSER: Turn the laser on. 23 MR. KING: I'm going to be leaving the meeting. 24 You finish it off. 25 MR. VOGT: We'll wait for Michelle, then. 6 1 MR. KING: I'm back. (Laughter.) 2 (Mr. King left the meeting.) 3 MR. MOSER: That was good, Fred. That was good. 4 MR. HAVENAR: All right. So, here we are today. I 5 was going to give Michelle a few minutes here at the 6 beginning of this, but instead we'll give Michelle a few 7 minutes at the end. What we're going to do is talk about the 8 schedule, review that real quick, and then the working paper 9 that you have in front of you is inclusive of the airport 10 inventory, aviation band forecast, and some preliminary 11 terminal hangar development alternatives, so we'll just get 12 into it, just like the -- the kickoff meeting we had. The 13 organization chart, you guys are at the top of it, and I work 14 for you. Despite the fact that TexDOT's paying for most of 15 the money on this, I work for you, as does TexDOT. So, keep 16 that -- keep that in mind in all that you do. In terms of -- 17 in terms of our -- our project, the bright green boxes are 18 where we're at. We're at the end of that bright green box, 19 which as far as the original schedule showed, showed at the 20 end of October, but since we did not get started exactly on 21 time, we're into November. Now, with this first working 22 paper, we are already in the process of developing the 23 facility requirements chapter and the airport alternatives 24 chapter. You've already got some preliminary alternatives 25 we're already working. 7 1 MR. MOSER: As you go through there, say "Element 2 2, 3, 4," whatever you're talking about. 3 MR. HAVENAR: Okay. So, we're through -- through 4 Element 1. 5 MR. MOSER: Yeah. 2, 3 -- 6 MR. HAVENAR: We are through Elements 2 and 3 and 7 into the working paper at the end of Element 3. 8 MR. MOSER: Okay. 9 MR. HAVENAR: We're continuing to work on -- on the 10 Elements 4 and 5, and those will be in your -- the second 11 working paper, which will come to you, I suspect, early 12 January for us to meet back again and do this again at your 13 January meeting. And I can -- I can comfortably say that, 14 because we are already looking at terminal development 15 alternatives for the west side and -- and for the development 16 area back behind us. 17 MR. MOSER: Perry, let me ask you a question, or 18 make an observation. There is a lot of information. 19 MR. HAVENAR: Yes, sir. 20 MR. MOSER: Okay? So the key is, we want to come 21 out of here with a plan. 22 MR. HAVENAR: Yes, sir. 23 MR. MOSER: Okay? 24 MR. HAVENAR: That's what we're working on. 25 MR. MOSER: So we're going to -- okay. So, where 8 1 does -- where in all these elements, airport -- you know, I 2 see a marketing plan. 3 MR. HAVENAR: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. MOSER: But where is -- where is the plan? 5 MR. HAVENAR: The airport layout plan? 6 MR. MOSER: No, where is the master plan? 7 MR. COWDEN: The final -- 8 MR. MOSER: The master plan. Where is the master 9 plan? 10 MR. HAVENAR: The master plan will be a combination 11 of all of this that's on the schedule here, all of those 12 elements that you see there. It will be a compilation of all 13 of those elements, and the input that you've given to us as 14 we go through each of these working elements. 15 MR. MOSER: Okay, let me choose another example. 16 You've got some options -- you've got a bunch of stuff here 17 on production, traffic, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. 18 Multiple options on different layouts. 19 MR. HAVENAR: Mm-hmm. 20 MR. MOSER: Okay. So, where do we -- where do we 21 sort through these options to come up with the selected 22 option? 23 MR. HAVENAR: That's what we're -- that's what 24 we're going to walk away from the meeting today. 25 MR. MOSER: Where do I see it here, Point 2? 9 1 MR. HAVENAR: It's in those green boxes on the 2 Element 5. 3 MR. MOSER: Element 5. 4 MR. HAVENAR: Okay? That's airport alternatives. 5 MR. MOSER: Okay. 6 MR. HAVENAR: And so the specific tasking under 7 airport alternatives, the reason those that those two green 8 boxes are there under Element 5, because you guys wanted to 9 look at -- 10 MR. MOSER: Right. 11 MR. HAVENAR: -- the front end of this project. 12 You wanted to look at some terminal development alternatives, 13 which is what we've provided them for, specifically for the 14 west side. 15 MR. MOSER: Right. 16 MR. HAVENAR: North of Mooney. 17 MR. MOSER: Right. 18 MR. HAVENAR: And back behind the existing terminal 19 development area that we have, that we're sitting in. 20 MR. MOSER: Okay. 21 MR. HAVENAR: Okay? And so what we're going to do 22 today is we're going to go through this presentation. At the 23 end of this presentation, we're going to talk about all these 24 alternatives that we -- we've provided you, and -- and we're 25 going to walk away from it with, "On the west side, this is 10 1 what we're going to do." 2 MR. MOSER: Okay. So, that's what you hope to do 3 today? 4 MR. HAVENAR: Absolutely. 5 MR. MOSER: Cool. Okay. Perfect. 6 MR. HAVENAR: And further than that, what TexDOT -- 7 what TexDOT wants us to do is, once we've identified this as 8 the layout that we want for the Mooney side of things, and 9 that's where we want to build first. 10 MR. MOSER: Mm-hmm. 11 MR. HAVENAR: This is the alternate we're going to 12 go with, or this is the mix and match of the different 13 alternates. 14 MR. MOSER: Okay. 15 MR. HAVENAR: You know, what are we going to do 16 first in that? And then we're going to follow up, then, and 17 provide them the specific layout of the preferred 18 alternative, what you want to do on that side, along with 19 some preliminary cost estimates so that TexDOT can take you 20 out of a holding pattern and put you into a funding process. 21 MR. MOSER: You answered my question. Thank you. 22 MR. HAVENAR: Okay, cool. Okay. Yeah, I'll keep 23 answering. So -- 24 MR. MOSER: Okay, good. 25 MR. HAVENAR: So that's where we're at in terms of 11 1 the schedule. Now, I'm just going to get into some of the 2 high points in terms of the information that's presented in 3 the working paper, and I'm not going to belabor a lot of it. 4 You guys know the airport as well or better than I do. I 5 just wanted to kind of go through a little bit of the history 6 of projects that you've seen occur at the airport, and you 7 can -- you can see there that the -- on the bottom line, 8 total investment locally at the airport is almost $2 million. 9 State involvement's been a little over $2 million, but then 10 federal money is almost $12 million. And those projects have 11 ranged from big projects like you're doing with the taxiway 12 and the entrance road recently, and this terminal building, 13 to smaller projects like the master plan or an ALP update, or 14 marketing plans and things like that. So, those projects 15 have run the gamut from the mid-'60's to today. 16 In terms of your airport and the role your airport 17 serves, it is defined by the TexDOT Airport System Plan as a 18 business corporate airport, and as such, it should meet the 19 applicable standards based on the Airport Reference Code. 20 Which the Airport Reference Code is defined by the F.A.A. 21 based on an aircraft's approach speed, and then their 22 wingspan or tail height. Okay? So, based on those 23 standards, there are minimums that you need to meet in terms 24 of runway length and width, your width being 75, and the 25 length being, at a minimum, 5,500 for the category airport 12 1 you're working with. A full-length parallel taxiway, your 2 primary runway, minimum apron. You have more than enough 3 apron. Minimum instrument approaches, runway and taxiway 4 lighting, visual approach aids, and then facilities, and 5 those are the types of things that you need to have available 6 for your -- your users of the airfield. 7 In terms of airfield facilities, we -- I look at 8 those in terms of two different ways, air side and land side. 9 On the air side, you've got runways, taxiways, aprons, and on 10 the land side, we've got terminal building, hangars, your 11 FBO, your fuel, and even manufacturing facilities like 12 Mooney. Just a quick shot of the -- of the airport and 13 exactly what you have here in terms of property and the 14 various different entities on the airport. And the other 15 thing that I wanted to emphasize on this is this runway 16 protection zones, which are those pink trapezoids off each 17 end of the runway, that are areas that you -- that you 18 absolutely need to protect, either by fee simple ownership or 19 through easements that control the property from the ground 20 up. 21 MR. COWDEN: And do we have those? They're in 22 place? 23 MR. VOGT: You have a violation on that one. 24 MR. COWDEN: On the left side? 25 MR. HAVENAR: But you also have an acceptance by 13 1 TexDOT and the F.A.A. -- you're talking about the east end? 2 MR. VOGT: I have not -- I don't want to open this 3 up again, but they have never -- are you talking about a 4 deviation from standards? 5 MR. HAVENAR: Yeah. 6 MR. VOGT: I don't believe they've ever 7 officially -- never deviated from the public standards for 8 that violation. 9 MR. HAVENAR: That will be something, Fred, you're 10 going to want to coordinate with TexDOT, and make sure that 11 TexDOT incorporates that into the Airport Layout Plan update 12 that they are completing for you. 13 MR. VOGT: They're doing the ALP, huh? 14 MR. HAVENAR: Yes, sir. 15 MR. VOGT: Okay. 16 MR. HAVENAR: That was -- 17 MR. VOGT: If some -- if some P.E., like Dave 18 Fulton, signs off on this, is that good enough, in your 19 expert -- 20 MR. HAVENAR: Yes, sir. 21 MR. VOGT: Okay. 22 MR. HAVENAR: We've also got an exhibit in there 23 that shows all the various different structures in terms of 24 the hangars; more specifically, the hangars within your 25 terminal complex. But then we've also got some of the major 14 1 structures on the Mooney side also numbered out there for 2 you. One of the most important aspects, then, when it comes 3 to your airport or air space and your navaids, and in terms 4 of air space, you guys are in classy air space with some 5 approach corridors. You have some military operation areas 6 that are associated with the air space around the airport. 7 In terms of navaids, your localizer here plus the NDB and 8 then vortac that can be used for navigation to and from -- 9 from the airport. Just a quick shot of a VFR sectional chart 10 with where you're at and the various different air spaces 11 that are around there. For those of you who don't know air 12 space, I can -- I can give you an explanation, but I don't 13 think for most of the people in the room it's very -- it's 14 one of those necessary things. 15 An important aspect of that air space is the 16 service area and the service area that your airport provides 17 service to. The National Plan of Integrated Airport Systems 18 defines that service area in F.A.A. Order 59 Bravo as a 19 30-minute travel time. So, they define that as a 25-mile 20 circle. Within that 25-mile circle, though, we have a number 21 of other airports that have competing services, so we can't 22 utilize the NPIAS service area to define -- solely define the 23 service area that the Kerrville airport serves. So, what 24 we've done is created that composite service area that you 25 saw in the report. That utilizes, then, the role and level 15 1 of service of competing airports, and it also takes a look at 2 ground transportation structure and where that -- population 3 centers might be, and the travel times between those other 4 competing airports to arrive at a look at the -- the airports 5 that are competing with you in terms of whether they're -- 6 they're basing aircraft or services that are provided. This 7 table just shows those various different publicly owned and 8 operated airports. 9 MR. MOSER: So there's one within the 25-mile -- 10 MR. HAVENAR: Of these -- of these airports that 11 are listed here, there are two that are inside; the Gillespie 12 County airport and Boerne's airport are both within, just 13 barely. I mean, it says 25.4; it's on the edge of it. But 14 because it's on the edge of it, those -- both those airports 15 have that 25-mile service area. So, those -- so those will 16 -- those will interact like this. 17 MR. MOSER: I see. Got you. Got you. 18 MR. HAVENAR: Okay. So any time we've got airports 19 where their NPIAS service areas overlap, -- 20 MR. MOSER: Yeah. 21 MR. HAVENAR: -- then we've got to redefine that 22 service area. And so we've taken it and gone from that to 23 this service area, which is the composite service area. So, 24 this is the area your airport serves, for all intents and 25 purposes. Are there users that are going to come further to 16 1 be at this airport? Yes. Are there users and aircraft 2 owners that are closer to your airport, but prefer to go to 3 another one of the others? Maybe yes, maybe no. I don't 4 know the answer to that question. As a part of the master 5 plan, we have also conducted an online survey of users, and 6 have mailed out to aircraft owners and pilots a postcard 7 within Kerr County, Kendall County, Bandera County, -- 8 MR. McKENZIE: Gillespie? 9 MR. HAVENAR: -- and Gillespie County, and selected 10 members of the Gillespie County, depending on where their 11 residents were, and solicited their opinion on what they 12 thought of your air site facilities and your terminal 13 facilities, with one being the service -- the facility is 14 adequate, and four being it's inadequate and needs -- needs 15 attention. You can see on here that on the air side of 16 things, you're pretty well set. The one suggestion would be 17 to maybe get some taxiway lighting, and you guys are in the 18 process of a new parallel taxiway. And I haven't seen the 19 plans on this; I didn't look at them specifically, and I 20 don't know if there's taxiway lighting in that project or 21 not. 22 MR. McKENZIE: No. 23 MR. HAVENAR: But there should be. I'm just 24 saying. 25 MR. VOGT: Something Michelle needs to hear. 17 1 MR. HAVENAR: I mean, you guys are in a -- a rural 2 area remote enough that when somebody gets out on the east 3 end of your primary runway, when this parallel taxiway is 4 done, and there's no reflectors or lights on the turn-around 5 or on the taxiway -- 6 MR. VOGT: Yeah. 7 MR. HAVENAR: -- and they're unfamiliar with the 8 field, the taxiway light is not working, the taxi light is 9 not working on their aircraft, they could go off of the edge 10 of that taxiway. And that's something that you don't want to 11 experience as a pilot or as an airport owner. You do, 12 however, have a lot more -- a lot more comments on the 13 terminal facilities. And one of the most impending needs -- 14 and you guys already know this -- is hangar availability. 15 And then the second most identified need being commercial 16 franchise space, and -- 17 MR. MOSER: We know about that. 18 MR. HAVENAR: And you already know about that as 19 well, and then the third one is auto access and parking. You 20 already know about that. You're already in the process of 21 addressing all of those issues. 22 MR. MOSER: And water drainage and flooding. 23 MR. McKENZIE: You added that? 24 MR. MOSER: Yes. That's so -- 25 MR. HAVENAR: And that's all being addressed, or 18 1 has been addressed. And so -- 2 MR. COWDEN: This is a survey you recently did? 3 MR. HAVENAR: Yes, sir. And we are still getting 4 results in. Now, this is very -- 5 MR. COWDEN: You talk about you didn't get a very 6 good response. 7 MR. HAVENAR: Didn't get very good response. This 8 is the -- yours is the first master plan that I've done in 9 this way. Historically, when I have completed a survey, and 10 especially for the number of potential respondents, there 11 were over 1,000 aircraft owners and pilots, so we took a 12 sampling of that and did -- and did a postcard that had an 13 online reference to go online and take the survey online. 14 Historically, I've done it in paper, where that it's been no 15 more than a two-page survey. I've mailed it to -- again, it 16 would have been a smaller sampling than what we mailed the 17 postcards to. It would have probably been about a quarter of 18 that sampling; probably would have only mailed it to all of 19 Kerr County's, and then a sampling from Kendall, Bandera, and 20 Gillespie County, and it would have only been around 250, 300 21 total. In terms of who we would have surveyed, I was hoping 22 to get a bigger response than what we have. We are still 23 getting responses. And I checked on last Wednesday; we 24 already have -- already had three or four more responses, and 25 I just didn't have them put these numbers in. 19 1 MR. MOSER: How many did you send it to? 2 MR. HAVENAR: I sent it to over 550. 3 MR. MOSER: And you got responses from how many? 4 MR. HAVENAR: At this point, 20. 5 MR. MOSER: Twenty, okay. Wow. 6 MR. HAVENAR: And I will continue to update this 7 part of the master plan, and if there -- if there are a 8 slough of responses that all of a sudden change one of those 9 drastically that you guys need to know about -- 10 MR. MOSER: So if somebody's got an objection, 11 they're going to respond. Okay. 12 MR. HAVENAR: And it's -- and the card that went 13 out had my phone number, my e-mail on it. If they didn't 14 want to go online and do that survey, I said please call me, 15 e-mail me; I will get you a copy of the survey. I've taken 16 one phone call. 17 MR. COWDEN: But in the past, you sent out the 18 survey? 19 MR. HAVENAR: Yes, sir. I sent it out on paper 20 with -- it has depended on how I've solicited that response 21 back. Sometimes I've sent it with a postage-paid return 22 envelope. Sometimes I've just sent it and said send it back 23 to me. And sometimes I've sent it and said you can drop this 24 by to the Airport Manager, or you can mail it back to me, or 25 any of that sort. And in the past, those responses have been 20 1 in the range of between 10 and 20 percent response rate. But 2 it's been a much more targeted audience as well. 3 MR. COWDEN: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. VOGT: However, looking at that, without any 5 survey, if we all sat around the table, we'd probably come up 6 with that kind of range. 7 MR. MOSER: Yeah. 8 MR. VOGT: I understand that it's -- hangar 9 availability is the worst. I mean, that's no surprise. 10 MR. HAVENAR: And that's important, because the 11 people that have responded know your airport. 12 MR. MOSER: Right. 13 MR. HAVENAR: They're not just fly-by-night folks 14 that have been through here once and picked up a card and did 15 the survey. So -- and like I said, I will continue to update 16 this information, and if something does come up, I will 17 absolutely bring it to your attention. One of the things 18 that we need to look at in terms of your facilities is, are 19 the runways adequate? And the F.A.A. asks us to make sure 20 that the crosswind component on your runways exceed 95 21 percent for your primary runway initially, and if your 22 primary runway does not provide that 95 percent crosswind 23 coverage, then we need to plan or have a crosswind runway, 24 which is the case here. For the smallest of aircraft only. 25 You'll notice for the all-weather wind coverage, the combined 21 1 runway 12/30 coverage is less than 95 percent. Not 2 significantly, so that one is -- it only accounts for roughly 3 12 days a year, okay? So, for 12 days a year, the smallest 4 of aircraft couldn't use the primary runway, but the 5 combination with the crosswind runway, you almost have 100 6 percent crosswind coverage. So, your -- so your crosswind 7 coverage for all weather conditions is -- is very good. And 8 you can say the same thing for your IFR wind coverage as 9 well. With that, the combined two-runway system is one I 10 would recommend you keep. 11 (Commissioner Letz joined the meeting.) 12 MR. HAVENAR: And keep developing it. This is just 13 a -- a graphic of another way of looking at the wind, and so 14 you can see that -- that the highest of those winds are the 15 smallest of the -- the colors. You can't really see them in 16 there very well. You can see this center -- look at 17 to 21 17 knots. Most of your winds are calm winds, zero to 10 knots 18 or 12 to 16 knots, so most aircraft are going to be able to 19 operate in and out of your runways without much trouble in 20 terms of wind. We had Square One -- we had Square One, a 21 sub-consultant of ours, do work on looking at the Mooney 22 Airplane Company complex over there. They took a look at it 23 in terms of mechanical, electrical, structural, and 24 environmental, and the Texas Accessibility Standards. And 25 I'm not going to go through the whole report, or even what we 22 1 included in the body of the report, but their entire report 2 is in Appendix B, and it's available for you. 3 Their recommended steps were to, number one, nail 4 down what Mooney's intentions are. What are they going to be 5 tomorrow? As soon as we can get that nailed down, the sooner 6 we can, the better off we are in terms of what we have over 7 there as an owner of that property. We need to redo those 8 lease terms and make sure of what Mooney is and can be held 9 to legally, based on lease terms of the contract. There are 10 recommended further environmental analyses that are included 11 in the report that range anywhere from a $15,000 study and 12 report to hiring or completing a -- a competitive bid process 13 to say if they close their doors tomorrow, completing a 14 competitive bid process to come in and say, well, all those 15 buildings and all that equipment is yours, but it needs to be 16 gone by this date. So, they recommend a broad range of 17 options that would include them looking at the viability of 18 the equipment that's over there. Is it worth emptying it 19 out, refurbishing the structures and using them again? 20 The depth of detail in some of the roof repairs 21 that -- I was talking with Joe this morning. I have not been 22 in the facility, so I wasn't able to be down here the day 23 Square One went over there, but I understand they have some 24 inventive ways of diverting the rain. (Laughter.) So, there 25 are some buildings over there that absolutely need roof 23 1 repairs. There are buildings over there that need just some 2 cosmetic improvements. They recommend specifically access 3 and parking, and above all, if another tenant -- another 4 tenant were to come in there and change the use of those -- 5 of the facility in a very little way, then A.D.A. compliance 6 becomes a huge issue, and then that becomes a costly 7 adventure for the airport and a new tenant. 8 In terms of socioeconomics in the area, we look at 9 a couple things. We look at population, and we look at 10 population just to see what's going on in the city of 11 Kerrville and Kerr County in comparison to the state of 12 Texas, and -- and where, then, the city and county population 13 ratios vary. And not only for historic numbers, but also 14 based on the Texas Water Development Board forecast, what 15 they present and what they forecast for what you would 16 anticipate in terms of growth within the city and the county, 17 and how that compares in the state of Texas. And then we 18 also look at income. Not just at what's the -- what's the 19 median household income, or what's the -- the personal per 20 capita income, but what is the variation on that in terms of 21 those income levels, and we'll look at it in terms of income 22 levels. There have been a number of different studies 23 completed by the United States government that indicate a 24 specific level of income within which a family would be able 25 to be actively utilizing aviation in terms of transportation 24 1 or pleasure. And that -- I think there's -- they're due to 2 come out with a new study. The last one I saw said that if a 3 household income is upwards of 50,000 or more, that they have 4 the capability of utilizing aviation as either transportation 5 or for pleasure. And with -- sir? 6 MR. VOGT: Do we know when the 2010 census 7 information will be out? Publicly? 8 MR. HAVENAR: I do not. 9 MR. VOGT: I'm wondering if it happens between the 10 time span of this master plan. 11 MR. MOSER: Probably not. Jonathan, you don't 12 know? 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, it won't be out then. 14 It'll be -- 15 MS. BAILEY: Takes a year, doesn't it? 16 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It'll be the end of next year. 17 MR. HAVENAR: That's what I was going to guess, but 18 I didn't want to say that, 'cause it will be the next -- end 19 of next year, and we'll be -- we should be finished with all 20 of our part of this project here. 21 MR. VOGT: Right. There's no preliminary 22 information that comes out to the county and the city? 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Not much. But those -- the 24 city number is probably a little bit low, and the county 25 number is probably real close. 25 1 MR. HAVENAR: Okay. 2 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I think the county's going to 3 be around 50,000. I think the city's going to be around -- 4 under 25,000, probably 24-something. I don't know. 5 MR. HAVENAR: Well, but that affects those numbers. 6 I mean, 'cause we're sitting at 24. 7 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Yeah. I think the -- the city 8 number is too low, I'd say, but the total county number's 9 pretty accurate, my guess on that. There are some other 10 numbers there. There's been a lot of concern about the Water 11 Development Board numbers, which are the official numbers. 12 MR. HAVENAR: Yeah. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: They were a lot lower. We can 14 argue to get them raised to this level, but there are 15 other -- in your analysis, you may look at some other 16 scenarios and other entities that do population projection, 17 because this is one of the lowest. 18 MR. HAVENAR: I tend to -- I tend to like the Texas 19 Water Development Board numbers, even though I agree they are 20 a little low, and they are a little suspect at times. But I 21 like them because they are conservative, and I don't want to 22 provide you with numbers -- and you'll see that with our 23 forecast; I'm not going to provide you with numbers that are 24 just going to be logarithmic out -- out of the roof. It's 25 unrealistic. It's not going to happen, more often than not, 26 1 unless there is some specific thing that happens within a 2 community or at an airport that would -- that would generate 3 that kind of growth. We did have Randal Wiedemann and 4 Associates that -- you guys have all met Randal -- that has 5 completed the revenue and expenses overview, and these are 6 numbers you guys know. You guys know them as well as we do, 7 as well as Randal does. 8 But in terms of revenues, you've got leases, fuel 9 flow, fuel flow fees, terminal lease, T-hangar leases, and 10 then interest and miscellaneous stuff and nonoperating 11 revenues, monies that do come in from TexDOT, whether AIP 12 grants, TexDOT system grants, or RAMP grants. And then 13 you've got input from Kerr County accounts, Kerrville city 14 accounts, and then other transfers in. I just wanted to 15 throw the tables up there that show the history and show a 16 little bit of where you're going and where you've been. And 17 knowing that in recent years, in terms of the -- the match 18 moneys and the input from TexDOT, that you've got a lot of 19 monies that have gone into the terminal building, taxiway, 20 apron, and the entrance road. But on the operational side, 21 you continue to fluctuate in terms of your T-hangar leases up 22 and down a little bit, but in terms of your fuel flow, it has 23 steadily increased to '08, with a fall off in '09, and 24 hopefully -- are you seeing a recovery from '10, or is it 25 still flat? 27 1 MR. KENNEDY: Seen signs of a possible recovery, 2 but I'm not counting my chickens before they hatch. 3 MR. HAVENAR: If it happens this year, it will 4 happen next month? 5 MR. KENNEDY: I hope so, yeah. 6 MR. HAVENAR: But hopefully, that'll -- that will 7 turn around and help things into '11 as well. In terms of 8 expenses, your -- your reports have it in terms of operating 9 and non-operating costs, so you've got non-operating capital 10 outlays, then the operating costs that are occurring based on 11 personnel, supplies, maintenance, utilities, all of those 12 different entities that you fund as a part of operating your 13 airport. The -- this, again, is just the history of your -- 14 of your expenses, and I think most, if not all, your expenses 15 fall within the normal range of things. There's not anything 16 that I saw, or that Randal saw, that were outside the norm in 17 terms of those costs. 18 We'll talk briefly here now about some aviation 19 activity forecasts. We'll give you a summary of some 20 historic aircraft operations, some national trends. We 21 looked at F.A.A. aerospace forecast, the terminal area the 22 F.A.A. generates for your airport, and developed a set of 23 general aviation demand forecasts. Speaking of which, I do 24 have some corrected pages for you, because as I was looking 25 at it, there are some pages that we get back into that some 28 1 numbers were not revised the way that I thought they had been 2 revised, and so now you are getting corrected pages that have 3 been revised the way they should have been before they came 4 to you. So, I apologize for that. 5 In terms of historic summary, we look at -- we try 6 to look at your based aircraft, your operations, and split 7 those operations out based on local and itinerant ops. And 8 the things that I took away from this was -- was the 9 migration that has happened since '95, since the numbers that 10 we had in '95 when your operations, your based aircraft were 11 at 69, just short of 70. Your operations were pretty split 12 about almost 50-50 in terms of local and itinerant. Your -- 13 your based aircraft have -- in probably the end of this year, 14 will have tripled from 1995, almost. Maybe not quite that, 15 but they've doubled -- more than doubled. But your 16 operations have shifted from being a 50-50 split to the point 17 where that now you have 70 percent of your operations are 18 itinerant. Which is a fantastic thing, fantastic thing for 19 your FBO, a fantastic thing for your airport, because you've 20 got people that are coming and going more than 25 miles away 21 from your airport every day to a lot of places all across the 22 nation. And so that's a -- a fantastic thing for your 23 airport. 24 In terms of national trends, there are over -- 25 almost 20,000 total U.S. airports, but only 3,400 of those 29 1 are in the National Plan of Integrated Airport Systems, of 2 which Kerrville is one of those, one of those 3,500 and 3 whatever. That is existing -- 3,556 existing airports. It 4 is a general aviation airport, so it's one of those 2,584 5 general aviation airports. In terms of national trends, 6 there are a couple things that we look at to try and see what 7 is happening within the aviation industry, and this is a 8 really bad picture here. In 1998, we -- we walked away from 9 the -- we had the General Aviation Revitalization Act that 10 took that liability off the aircraft manufacturers. Well, it 11 brought the manufacturing up to those levels in 2001. Then 12 we occur -- then we have the 9/11, which drops everything 13 down through 2003, and then we have a nice recovery through 14 2008 in terms of aircraft shipment. And then our economy 15 goes in the tank, and -- and that's what's happened. It's 16 gone down below the pre-General Aviation Revitalization Act 17 figures, down to less -- almost 1,600. 18 MR. MOSER: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. HAVENAR: However, there are other trends that 20 are not as bad, and these are the operators that are coming 21 into your airport right now that are the fractional guys, 22 those folks that own a part of an airplane, but come in here 23 quite often, and those have continued to increase and 24 continued to increase through '08, with a minor fall-off in 25 '09. And I suspect when we get to the '10 and '11 numbers, 30 1 those numbers are going to be recovering back and continuing 2 to grow. A trend here that I -- that I've shown in terms of 3 general aviation is the blue line is the total piston hours; 4 the red line are the total turbine hours. And you can see 5 these two coming closer and closer together, and they will -- 6 in terms of the forecast, and I suspect that the turbine hour 7 versus piston hour forecast will cross before it shows that 8 they're even getting close out there in 2030. I suspect they 9 will cross before we get to 2020, with the turbine hours 10 taking over and really making a difference. And so, again, 11 those are the aircraft that you want to have coming into your 12 airport and using it. 13 COMMISSIONER LETZ: What's the reason -- I mean, 14 are there more wealthy people that can afford it? Or the 15 price comes down and it's more economical to use it? 16 MR. HAVENAR: It's a little bit of both. Part of 17 it is -- part of it is the money is there within the hands 18 that can spend it, and they do. But part of it is, as well, 19 that there are more sophisticated smaller aircraft coming 20 into the fleet that are now almost as affordable as the 21 piston fleet is, and they're making almost as many of them. 22 MR. KENNEDY: There's a real effort to phase out 23 piston engines for EPA environmental reasons. They're trying 24 to phase out avgas altogether. 25 MR. MOSER: May have -- is turbine -- maintenance 31 1 on a turbine engine more expensive than a piston engine? 2 MR. WALTERS: Absolutely. 3 MR. HAVENAR: Absolutely, yes. That's the other 4 part of that. Oops. In terms of looking at the F.A.A. 5 aerospace forecast, we look at the active pilots and we try 6 to get a gauge as to where they think those kind of things 7 are going in the future, and utilize that information to 8 apply it into your forecast. We do the same thing as in 9 terms of -- 10 MR. MOSER: Go back to that previous one real 11 quick. Let me just look at -- 12 MR. HAVENAR: So you've got a little bit of history 13 from 2000, '03 and '05, with some anticipated numbers from 14 the '09 report. 15 MR. MOSER: Okay. 16 MR. HAVENAR: And some forecasts for '30. 17 MR. MOSER: Okay, good. Thanks. 18 MR. HAVENAR: And then they do the same thing here 19 in terms of the G.A. fleet. It separates out twin, 20 single-engine, multi-engine, piston, turbine aircraft, as 21 well as the helicopters and experimental light support 22 aircraft. And so it's going to continue to grow, but at the 23 rate they say here, that's debatable. In terms of forecasts 24 for your airport, we look at a number of different 25 methodologies, and we make some assumptions. We make some 32 1 assumptions in terms of future at your airport, and one of 2 the assumptions that we make is that these forecasts are 3 unconstrained. They're not constrained by hangars that you 4 have, hangars that you don't have. We're going to forecast 5 based aircraft based on what we see from the inventory and 6 from the national and regional trends. We're -- we made some 7 business needs assumptions, and that's the fact that your 8 airport continues to utilize those fraction jets, and they're 9 going to continue to bring those aircraft here. And then we 10 also try and look at area employment as part of that. 11 In terms of based aircraft, again, we're -- we're 12 looking at a number of different types of trends, and we 13 arrived at a preferred forecast that is a -- a moderate 14 forecast forecasting your based aircraft from 160-some to 15 over 250 by the year 2030. And then we've got the split of 16 those aircraft out, such as this. You can see then the -- 17 the turboprop aircraft and the turbo jet aircraft are growing 18 at a significantly faster rate than you do see of the 19 single-engine aircraft. Even the multi-engine piston 20 aircraft are really not in production any more, and so 21 their -- their numbers aren't going to grow significantly, if 22 they even grow at all. They may even decline, which is what 23 the F.A.A. forecasts show. But because of the business 24 climate of the airport, those -- those smaller businesses 25 that can go out and buy a used piston and fly it effectively 33 1 for their business are going to continue to do that. And so 2 I didn't want to -- I didn't want to show a decreasing number 3 in the multi-engine piston aircraft at the airport. 4 In terms of operations, again, we look at a number 5 of different forecasts to arrive at a preferred forecast that 6 shows growth from the 60,000 of the operations from your 2009 7 number, up to over 118,000 by the year 2020. And that's -- 8 it's fairly conservative. I mean, we've got -- we've got 9 other forecasts; the F.A.A. growth rate forecast that shows 10 it to be less than ours, but the combined piston and turbine 11 average of significantly more than ours. And so we wanted to 12 find a moderate place to be, and something that is 13 achievable. And if you get there before we forecast you 14 getting there, you guys are doing the right things. So, we 15 also forecast out in -- and this is one of those tables that 16 I had to go back and fix, because it just didn't add. But we 17 wanted to show the different -- operationally, the types of 18 aircraft that are working and how many of those operations 19 are based on single-engine or turbojet and the level of 20 growth you can see in those. 21 In the right-hand table, and then in the -- or the 22 left-hand table, and then the right-hand table, it's based on 23 Aircraft Reference Code categories, so you've got the 24 aircraft approach category and the airplane design group. 25 And so you can see, then, that those aircraft that get into 34 1 the C and D categories, those are your big businesses that 2 are coming in here. And then in the airplane design group, 3 that's the Group II, so they're -- they're wing spans of 48 4 to 78 feet -- or 49 to 78 feet, and you can see they're a 5 significant part of what your operations are, and continue to 6 -- or will continue to be so throughout the future. We 7 forecast instrument approach procedures. You guys already 8 have a slough of them here. Because of those sophisticated 9 jets coming in here, they're on here on instrument approach 10 plans, and will induce your instrument approach procedures 11 utilizing your localizer and things like that to get in here. 12 Then this is just a summary of all the forecast numbers, and 13 I'm not going to go through any more of that. We've talked 14 about that enough. 15 Now we get to talk about the fun stuff, or at least 16 what I think is the fun stuff, and that's development 17 alternatives. And we'll talk about the west side first, 18 those over there north of Mooney, and then we'll talk about 19 the east side a little bit. We've given you a number of 20 different alternatives, and I'm just going to flip through 21 these and tell you why I think I put this one first, and why 22 this one is the one that I prefer. 23 MR. MOSER: Mm-hmm. 24 MR. WALTERS: Let me make one comment, 'cause this 25 came up with Mooney earlier, that all these plans do show 35 1 that this -- this is based upon the paint shop being removed. 2 MR. HAVENAR: Right. Well, you've got that hangar, 3 the taxi lane that comes from Mooney, and so that hangar is 4 just to the south side of that. And just -- just the -- 5 basically, right where that second T-hangar is on the group 6 of right ones -- yeah, it's just right on the end of that 7 T-hangar, right in there. 8 MR. McKENZIE: Where the paint shop is? 9 MR. HAVENAR: Yeah. So, that's based on what Bruce 10 has told me, that they were ready for that property to come 11 back to the airport. And -- and the Square One's analysis of 12 the structure was that they can take it or leave it. And 13 it's probably less expensive to let it go and redevelop it. 14 The issue I would have with that is, what are we -- what are 15 we inheriting environmentally? 16 MR. WALTERS: Under the property. 17 MR. HAVENAR: Yes, sir. 18 MR. WALTERS: Under the building. 19 MR. HAVENAR: Based on the fact that it's been a 20 paint hangar, and that there are two lockers outside of the 21 building that sit on the edge of the apron that it's -- that 22 the hangar sits on that have been used for storage of paint 23 and chemicals. So, those would be the issues that I would 24 have with taking that back, and I would want -- if it were my 25 airport, I would want Mooney providing me with a clean bill 36 1 of health for that building before I assumed that building 2 back from them. 3 MR. VOGT: That may be one of the reasons they 4 don't want to give it up, because they own the ownership and 5 the lifetime cleanup of that. 6 MR. HAVENAR: Mm-hmm. 7 MR. VOGT: If they give it back, they know we're 8 going to ask them to mitigate that, and it's -- it's going to 9 cost them a lot of money. It's cheaper for them to keep the 10 building, even though it's out of conformance. 11 MR. HAVENAR: Right. 12 MR. VOGT: In all sorts of ways. 13 MR. HAVENAR: So, this -- this alternate shows a 14 number of different things. We can start at the left-hand 15 side where we've got it with the -- a partial parallel 16 taxiway on this side of the airfield, and then small -- what 17 are they? -- 40 by 60 box hangars along that taxiway, until 18 we get to a point where now we can put in that first T-hangar 19 and have it available to us to be able to get aircraft stored 20 in it, and it -- and this first T-hangar that's in the center 21 of the exhibit then allows us to stay off of Mooney's 22 property and that paint hangar. 23 MR. MOSER: Perry, so, going back to what you were 24 showing as the forecast, and now this concept, -- 25 MR. HAVENAR: Mm-hmm. 37 1 MR. MOSER: -- did you base this concept on -- on 2 that forecast and say this is the right -- the right mix of 3 box hangars and T-hangars? Or how did you do this? Or did 4 you just maximize -- 5 MR. HAVENAR: Initially, it was maximizing the 6 space. 7 MR. MOSER: Yeah, okay. 8 MR. HAVENAR: And, really, if I was to do that, if 9 I was just going to maximize the existing space that we have, 10 I would go with this one, 'cause this one maximizes the 11 existing space with just T-hangars. 12 MR. MOSER: But you're not doing anything along 13 here? 14 MR. HAVENAR: Exactly. But that doesn't mean that 15 can't be done. 16 MR. MOSER: But answer my question. You were just 17 looking at land utilization, as opposed to, "We need to have 18 20 percent box hangars and 80 percent T-hangars"? 19 MR. HAVENAR: And that's why -- that's why I 20 started with the fourth one I just showed you with just the 21 T-hangars. 22 MR. MOSER: Yeah. 23 MR. HAVENAR: And then, because there was going to 24 be a mix of aircraft that would want to be in the T-hangars, 25 as well as aircraft that may want to have one of these 40 by 38 1 60's on their own, -- 2 MR. MOSER: Yeah. 3 MR. HAVENAR: -- I provided then the various other 4 alternatives that -- that provide you that mix of 5 availability. 6 MR. MOSER: Okay, got you. 7 MR. VOGT: TexDOT has said something preliminary 8 that they might do the ramp areas and the taxiways that are 9 required. This particular option is huge in blacktop cost, 10 right? As I just look at it -- 11 MR. HAVENAR: Yes, sir. 12 MR. VOGT: And, Perry, what -- based on your 13 forecast, that's probably over what we need? 14 MR. HAVENAR: Oh, yes, sir. 15 MR. VOGT: So, TexDOT -- F.A.A.'s going to say, 16 "Well, if it's not in your forecast, why are we building that 17 many?" Therefore, why -- and they've agreed to do the 18 horizontal stuff, the blacktop. Then they're not going to do 19 that. 20 (Michelle Hannah joined the meeting.) 21 MR. HAVENAR: They're not going to do all of it, 22 no. 23 MR. VOGT: Well, we want them to do all of it. 24 Michelle? 25 MS. HANNAH: We'll do the first piece. 39 1 MR. MOSER: Came right in time. 2 MR. HAVENAR: That's what -- exactly what we're 3 doing, is looking at these different alternatives. You guys 4 are going to tell me, "We like part of this one, part of this 5 one." We'll put them together as a preferred alternative. 6 And not only that, but the first thing we want to build, 7 based on the forecast and based on our aircraft hangar 8 waiting list, we need to build one 12-unit T-hangar tomorrow, 9 and we want it to be this one, with the associated flat work 10 to go with it. 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Do you get to a point that, on 12 your forecast -- 13 MR. HAVENAR: That would be filled? 14 COMMISSIONER LETZ: No, where you just say how many 15 we should build based on the forecast for the next 30 years. 16 MR. HAVENAR: I do that. It's not shown in there 17 right now. 18 MR. VOGT: Anecdotally, Bruce gave a presentation 19 to a bunch of pilots at our monthly luncheon meeting, and 20 there were a number, including one member who was on the 21 board at Gillespie County airport. He said, "If do you that, 22 we have people at Gillespie County Airport that will be 23 coming to Kerrville without a doubt." They're not on 24 anybody's waiting list. 25 MR. HAVENAR: But they will -- 40 1 MR. VOGT: They will bail out of Gillespie to come 2 to Kerrville. Because, you know, he's on the board, and 3 they've already factored -- they haven't factored anything 4 in, but that's going to hurt them. 5 MR. HAVENAR: Mm-hmm. 6 MR. VOGT: The reason they were there is to listen 7 to that presentation, by the way. 8 MR. HAVENAR: Mm-hmm. 9 MR. VOGT: So, 32 could really be -- whatever we 10 think that soft number of people is. 11 MR. MOSER: I think when we said, "Here's how many 12 we think are firm, and here's how many that are..." There's 13 a 90 percent number, as I recall. We did something -- we did 14 something that was a 40 or 50 percent number that was -- 15 MR. VOGT: Yeah. The -- several were TexDOT -- 16 only not get in trouble with TexDOT. They'll say Gillespie 17 County's already on the NPIAS system. We're stealing from 18 another airport. We're not necessarily wanting to fund 19 something that's based on somebody from Gillespie County 20 moving over and leaving vacant hangars at Gillespie County. 21 MR. WALTERS: Did they say why they would be 22 moving? 23 MR. VOGT: 'Cause they like the facility here, a 24 6,000-foot runway, and it has no minimums. 25 MR. KENNEDY: Most people want T-hangars. There's 41 1 just no T-hangars available. 2 MR. WALTERS: I didn't know if it was proximity or, 3 you know, just -- 4 MR. VOGT: Yes, some of it's proximity. I think 5 more of it's just the overall facility of Kerrville versus 6 Gillespie County. The minimums, for one. I mean, you come 7 in here; much, much better weather. 8 MR. HAVENAR: Your airport's functional and 9 services are far better than what you can get at 10 Fredericksburg. 11 MR. VOGT: But the same argument would apply in San 12 Antonio. I think there's a lot of jets in San Antonio, if 13 you build a combination of these kind of -- that would come 14 there, but that's not in your forecast. It's not in the 15 forecast, 'cause it's not in -- in our waiting list. If 16 we're just doing this on the waiting list, we're going to 17 build 32 hangars, and Michelle will say, well, we need one 18 stub and one little bit there. But we -- we know there's 19 going to be some more airplanes coming in. 20 MR. HAVENAR: But in so doing, you know that you 21 can communicate that to TexDOT. 22 MR. VOGT: I just did. 23 MS. HANNAH: I'm a sponge. 24 MR. HAVENAR: And they can anticipate that to a 25 degree. 42 1 MR. VOGT: Yeah. Thank you. 2 MR. HAVENAR: But you've got to stay with them. 3 MR. MOSER: What is this -- what are the totals 4 that you have here, Perry? I can't read them. 5 MR. COWDEN: 88? Is that what it is? Total 6 T-hangars, 88. 21 box hangars. 7 MR. HAVENAR: Yeah. 8 MR. MOSER: It was big. I remember when we first 9 laid it out, we said 100 T-hangars we could do, so you've got 10 that in spades. 11 MR. HAVENAR: You've got a -- we've got to realize 12 that some people are going to always want to be in a 13 T-hangar. Some people are always going to want to be in 14 their own private hangar, and so we need to continue to be 15 able to accommodate all those desires. Which is why I've 16 showed you a variety of different options. 17 MR. MOSER: Yeah. 18 MR. VOGT: Well, we could pick a piece of one -- 19 MR. HAVENAR: Absolutely. 20 MR. VOGT: -- and do it, and then phase it in for 21 two -- you know, Phase 2 and 3. Even TexDOT would prefer us 22 not doing all this blacktop work here if, in fact, the growth 23 isn't there. We could pick one and then do -- do it in 24 phases. 25 MR. HAVENAR: Correct. 43 1 MR. VOGT: Correct. 2 MR. HAVENAR: That would be the plan, to do that. 3 You're not going to do it all at once. You don't have the 4 demand. 5 MS. HANNAH: Yeah. 6 MR. HAVENAR: You've got the demand for a lot of it 7 up front. At least you probably got the demand for 40 8 hangars. 9 MR. VOGT: Right. 10 MR. HAVENAR: Additional hangars right now. And 11 that's -- again, because I am conservative, it's a 12 conservative number. 13 MR. MOSER: But -- I'll just let you keep going; 14 then I'll ask you a question in a minute. 15 MR. HAVENAR: Okay. Well, these are open for your 16 discussion. I'm not -- I don't necessarily need to provide 17 any -- I'm here for you. 18 MR. MOSER: Three out of the four that you have on 19 the west side has a new taxiway. The fourth one does not. 20 MR. HAVENAR: Mm-hmm. 21 MR. MOSER: Quite a lot of difference in the cost 22 if you don't have that taxiway. 23 MR. HAVENAR: Mm-hmm. 24 MR. MOSER: So you didn't lay out anything that has 25 box hangars and no taxiway. You just put all T-hangars. 44 1 That's the only one that doesn't have a taxiway. 2 MR. HAVENAR: Right. 3 MR. MOSER: Yeah. So any time you showed a box 4 hangar, you had a taxiway. 5 MR. VOGT: Is this -- 6 MR. MOSER: And so is there some reason you did 7 that? 8 MR. HAVENAR: The reason I did that is because, 9 more often than not, those people that are going to be in 10 their own box hangar are going to be using their aircraft on 11 a more regular basis than those that are going to be putting 12 it in a T-hangar, flying it every 90 days or 180 days, just 13 to go get in it and fly around. Those that are willing and 14 able to house it in a T-hangar -- or in a box hangar can 15 afford it, and can afford to operate the aircraft for 16 business purposes or pleasure, but on a more continuous 17 basis. And, thus, if you have that clientele on the west 18 side, we need to be able to have them accessing your 19 crosswind runway, if that's the one they so choose to use, 20 without having to cross it. And so that's why I showed this 21 partial parallel going to the -- 22 MR. VOGT: Is the paint hangar here -- this shows 23 we will put the paint hangar -- it will be clear of these 24 hangars; is that correct? 25 MR. HAVENAR: No. 45 1 MR. MOSER: It's about right where your pen is. 2 MR. HAVENAR: Right there, yep. 3 MR. VOGT: Well, right there -- okay. 4 MR. MOSER: Yeah. So, go to the next one, Perry. 5 Right there. 6 MR. HAVENAR: Mm-hmm. 7 MR. WALTERS: We would be clear of the paint hangar 8 there. 9 MR. HAVENAR: No. 10 MR. MOSER: Pretty much. 11 MR. VOGT: Yes. 12 MR. MOSER: Pretty much. 13 MR. HAVENAR: You're close to it. 14 MR. MOSER: No, further up there -- yeah. Up. 15 MR. COWDEN: Right there. 16 MR. MOSER: Yeah. And that was my question. So, 17 you've got 76 T-hangars there. 18 MR. HAVENAR: Mm-hmm. 19 MR. MOSER: You could put box hangars -- some 20 combination of box hangars and T-hangars there, and eliminate 21 the need for the taxiway. You're losing a lot of real estate 22 out there that -- 23 MR. HAVENAR: Well, that's not to say, too, we 24 couldn't show that with this option as well. 25 MR. MOSER: Right. You can also show it like this 46 1 and a taxiway later, or something as a phase. 2 MR. HAVENAR: Correct. 3 MR. MOSER: Yeah. 4 MR. HAVENAR: And the reason -- and, like I say, 5 this is the reason I showed all the various different 6 alternatives. I didn't want to -- I didn't want to push you 7 guys into a corner saying you have to do this option. 8 MR. MOSER: Right. 9 MR. HAVENAR: I want this -- this is your airport, 10 and it needs to be a plan that you're ready to move forward 11 with and aggressively pursue TexDOT funding for the -- the 12 pavement work. 13 MR. VOGT: I certainly want to applaud you for 14 dealing with those two stubs up there, as opposed to one. I 15 envisioned this thing -- that's why I'm not an aviation 16 planner any more. I envisioned, I think, just being one 17 taxiway in there. But -- but you have a -- it's a rotation 18 here that will work just great. 19 MR. HAVENAR: Fred, that's one of those things I 20 hate about an airport, is having one access to a hangar area. 21 I just despise it. 22 MR. VOGT: Then you have a plane waiting on the 23 runway to get in there, and that's -- F.A.A. won't like that 24 at all. 25 MR. HAVENAR: If I could have slid this down where 47 1 those two taxiways would have tied in directly across to 2 those others, I would have, but I couldn't get it to work 3 with -- with the topography and the limited space that we 4 had. So -- 5 MR. VOGT: So, Phase 2 of this could finish a 6 parallel on the other side. 7 MR. HAVENAR: Sure. 8 MR. VOGT: And build other hangars alongside that 9 later on. 10 MR. HAVENAR: You can split it up in as many phases 11 as you want. What I would recommend as Phase 1 is that you 12 build the two T-hangars closest to the runway to the left 13 side, those two, with the associated pavement. That's going 14 to give you -- 'cause that one's 12. That's going to give 15 you 22 for sure. And what it doesn't do is, it doesn't have 16 you doing a whole lot of dirt work for those others that are 17 on the back side, because we're still going to have to have 18 some pretty significant fill for those three on -- those 19 three T-hangars on the back side for them to be constructed. 20 MR. MOSER: Yeah, we missed that. 21 MR. COWDEN: Perry, I guess it's in the TexDOT plan 22 down the road; we've talked about it a little bit. Me and 23 two other guys want to see this, but we talked about a loop 24 road around to access from -- for, you know, the -- 25 MR. HAVENAR: To go around the back side? 48 1 MR. COWDEN: Yeah. Have you thought about that? I 2 didn't see any of that in there. 3 MR. McKENZIE: I don't think we told you about it, 4 did we? 5 MR. HAVENAR: I haven't -- 6 MS. HANNAH: One thing I hate about this airport is 7 driving by it to get to it. 8 MR. McKENZIE: That's one right there. 9 MR. HAVENAR: That's why I come in from the other 10 way and just get right off. 11 MS. HANNAH: If you live in Kerrville, you always 12 drive by the airport. 13 MR. COWDEN: Ninety percent of that traffic is 14 coming from Kerrville now from the west, and so you got to 15 drive way around. Maybe a loop would be -- 16 MR. HAVENAR: And we did the -- 17 MR. COWDEN: -- put in the 10- or 15-year plan for 18 TexDOT. 19 MR. KENNEDY: I think if you really lined it out, 20 though -- there's already going to be access from the road 21 going to Mooney to get to this T-hangar stuff, but if you 22 actually linear drew out the line to go around the end of the 23 runway and back up into the middle, probably the same -- same 24 distance as going from the back. 25 MS. HANNAH: I like that. 49 1 MR. KENNEDY: Probably very close, 'cause I've 2 given it a lot of thought. 3 MR. COWDEN: As we're looking at this master plan, 4 I would like to see that looked at. 5 MS. HANNAH: Okay. There's one little creek you 6 have to cross already. There's -- 7 MR. McKENZIE: Silver Creek. 8 MR. COWDEN: Is it physically possible? That's one 9 issue. 10 MR. MOSER: I'm not sure it's physically possible. 11 MR. HAVENAR: I think we had talked briefly about 12 this, and I think what I had Chris do is, I'd have him look 13 at the City's thoroughfare plan to see if they had anything 14 in terms of other -- but I didn't -- there was nothing there. 15 MR. MOSER: There's nothing there. 16 MR. HAVENAR: Planned out there. 17 MR. MOSER: No, there's nothing there, I know. 18 MR. HAVENAR: If it's something that the airport 19 wanted to do, I'm afraid the City would come back and say, 20 "Okay, you can pay for it." 21 MR. COWDEN: Well, that might be the plan. 22 MR. MOSER: It's not in the thoroughfare plan. 23 MR. HAVENAR: I didn't think it was. 24 COMMISSIONER LETZ: It isn't in the thoroughfare 25 plan, but if the U.S.D.A. center gets built, which is down 50 1 here on Peterson Farm Road, the City just took -- didn't the 2 City just take a little bit of Peterson Farm Road? So 3 Peterson Farm Road is mostly county road, but the City 4 just -- through an annexation thing we worked out with them, 5 they took a little bit more of it. The reason -- you know, 6 the fact that it's not on the thoroughfare plan, I wouldn't 7 discount planning for it. 8 MR. MOSER: Right. 9 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Because if the U.S.D.A. center 10 goes in here, some other things happen out here. You already 11 have the high school over there. The traffic's going to get 12 more and more growth into that area, in which case 13 something's going to need to be done. 14 MR. COWDEN: Perry, this has been talked about for 15 30 or 40 years. I mean, it goes back to my dad's time on the 16 board, the first airport board years ago. So -- 17 MR. HAVENAR: Okay. 18 MS. HANNAH: I think now that Mooney's not going to 19 be treated so exclusively -- I think before, it was always, 20 "This is Mooney's entrance." And as that develops, you're 21 going to have -- 22 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Okay. 23 MS. HANNAH: -- much more traffic. 24 MR. MOSER: Perry, it seems like there are a lot of 25 variables here that we have to look at to try and decide, you 51 1 know, what's -- what's a concept, at which phase, concept 2 which we want to pursue. 3 MR. HAVENAR: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. MOSER: I don't know how we get from here to 5 there today. You got a lot of options here, and there's a 6 lot of variables. It seems -- and one of the things is the 7 paint hangar. You know, we're -- 8 MR. HAVENAR: Not at the point where you can assume 9 that. 10 MR. MOSER: We're not there yet. What do we know? 11 We know we've got some stuff that's available over here. Got 12 a lot of fill we need to do down here. We've got 30 or 40 13 people that want T-hangars. 14 MR. HAVENAR: Mm-hmm. 15 MR. MOSER: Okay. So we'd like to move out pretty 16 fast. We'd also like to do it phased, 'cause we don't know 17 we can optimistically say we're going to need more box 18 hangars. 19 MR. KENNEDY: The master plan is actually, like, a 20 20-year plan, so you're not talking a 5-year plan. So, if 21 you want to talk planning, it's going to be for a 20-year 22 period. 23 MR. MOSER: Precisely. So it just conceptually 24 says, yeah, you can do something like starting here. 25 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Right. 52 1 MR. MOSER: No taxiway. 2 MR. HAVENAR: Right. 3 MR. MOSER: But have it envisioned where you put 4 the taxiway, box hangars like you do in the other one. 5 MR. HAVENAR: Mm-hmm. 6 MR. MOSER: I think we -- then we need to go one 7 step beyond where you are right now. I think we've got some 8 good ideas here, but I don't know how we -- 9 MR. WALTERS: It's tough. One step is to include 10 what -- 11 MR. MOSER: One step is to include initial 12 T-hangars, okay? But then show how it -- it evolves into 13 something with a taxiway and more box hangars, and blah, 14 blah, blah. 15 MR. VOGT: Tom's right. And the way this whole 16 thing is supposed to be, of course, is this is a projection, 17 and TexDOT F.A.A. is going to say, "Well, it's not in your 18 master plan for ALP." You know, everything that was proposed 19 is in there. We can propose any -- any one of these 20 depictions here in our ALP. And -- and how we ultimately 21 configure this thing doesn't have to necessarily be nailed 22 down. The fact that we want to make this a development area 23 for T-hangars and its configuration, but having that taxiway 24 continued out here, I would recommend to the board that they 25 -- they actually show that on their -- our master plan and on 53 1 the ALP as proposed. 2 MR. MOSER: Right. 3 MR. VOGT: You know, I think we don't have to make 4 a decision for 10 years down the line. 5 MR. HAVENAR: Right. 6 MR. VOGT: But give you direction to make sure that 7 we robustly -- I would say robustly show this whole thing 8 with, you know, not just 32, but 132 if we want. Because you 9 can always -- if Michelle signs off on that -- or TexDOT 10 signs off on that, it's on your ALP forever for the next 10 11 years. Then you can -- then you don't have to go back to 12 them; "Well, gosh, we really should have put this on our ALP, 13 but we didn't do it." Let's do it now. Somebody's going to 14 sign off on it. Right, Michelle? 15 MS. HANNAH: Mm-hmm. Well, and keep in mind that 16 this is all, like -- exactly, Fred. I mean, it's potential 17 development ideas. It's really a tool for you to figure out, 18 and it's Perry's charge to develop the areas so that you 19 don't overlook or cut yourself short -- 20 MR. COWDEN: Right. 21 MS. HANNAH: -- on your potential to fully develop 22 it. Whether you ever -- I mean, this could be a 50-year 23 plan. Might take 50 years to get there, but you want to have 24 the development ideas so that, you know, you can have the 25 flow, you can have certain options. The other thing -- and I 54 1 don't know who this other gentleman was. I don't know -- I 2 don't want to give my one -- my one spiel, but can you go to 3 the other side? I mean, these are all options that I think 4 are going to take a little longer to develop. That's a -- 5 where's that? 6 MR. McKENZIE: That's right behind here. 7 MS. HANNAH: Okay. To me, a vision for what you 8 want this airport to be is more what y'all should be -- 9 MR. VOGT: Exactly. 10 MS. HANNAH: -- focusing on. And I think that, 11 though it's very nice to have T-hangars, the people that are 12 going to drive and develop and bring your airport leaps ahead 13 with all the development we've been doing is to focus and 14 concentrate on how you're going to accommodate more 15 corporate, more -- develop this area. This is -- this is 16 where your amenities are. You have a terminal building. You 17 have your -- you haven't fully developed this side yet. 18 MR. MOSER: Right. 19 MS. HANNAH: It's more challenging. And, yes, I 20 think your first task is to figure out where to put, the most 21 economically, a set of T-hangars. I don't think one set of 22 T-hangars on that side is going to destroy any other 23 potential changes that you might make, though I think it's 24 very important that you have a vision for over there, the one 25 that looks most practical. I think besides -- after that, 55 1 the next thing y'all need to figure out is where and how you 2 want to accommodate and focus on maybe this side being 3 corporate, that side more being G.A. Or if you want to 4 eventually have two houses -- I mean, eventually you're going 5 to have so much activity over there, you're going to need 6 another terminal facility of some kind or an FBO over there 7 to ultimately address that community. Because you can't be 8 going across -- you're like two airports in one. You have 9 that airport, and then you have this airport system. So 10 you're not going to be, I don't think, really wanting 11 corporate aircraft zooming across -- 12 MR. VOGT: No. 13 MS. HANNAH: -- the secondary runway to come over 14 here to use 12/30. Or you have to have a -- safety-wise, 15 Mark, I'm not looking at the other end of -- what's your 16 crosswind number? 17 MR. McKENZIE: 3/21. 18 MS. HANNAH: 3/21. So, access is down to 12/30, 19 right? 20 MR. McKENZIE: Right. 21 MS. HANNAH: So, if you do have corporate, then, on 22 the Mooney side, how you can get over access, basically, not 23 to go this way so much, but to go to that end for takeoff 24 and -- 25 MR. VOGT: I thought the idea was to stay with the 56 1 T-hangars on -- on 3/12. Because that's the size runway it 2 is; it's a B-1, B-2 runway, and we don't want -- we don't 3 want a Falcon jet taking off on it. 4 MS. HANNAH: Right. 5 MR. HAVENAR: Which is why the hangar's shown, if 6 any. Alternate's no bigger than an 80 -- they were an 80 by 7 80. You can get a small jet in there, but it's going to be a 8 real small one. 9 MR. VOGT: But if you -- I'm sorry, I just want to 10 carry this out. What Joey will tell you is that if you build 11 T-hangars on 3/21, like on the -- not on this one. 12 MR. MOSER: Well, as I understand -- 13 MR. VOGT: On the north side. That's going to free 14 up space, 'cause these guys will do that. That's a nice 15 little facility for them. Michelle is right, too, because 16 this is a business corporate airport; it's not a general 17 aviation -- it's a general aviation-slash-business corporate 18 airport. 19 MR. HAVENAR: Right. 20 MR. VOGT: What we want are those big airplanes up 21 here. 22 MR. HAVENAR: Right. 23 MR. VOGT: And I want to talk about grading and all 24 that other kind of stuff when you -- when we're finally here, 25 but I -- 57 1 MR. HAVENAR: Okay. 2 MR. VOGT: Do we want to talk about that now? 3 MR. HAVENAR: No. 4 MR. COWDEN: That was what I was going to say. 5 That was the problem we had in doing T-hangars over here, 6 because of that grade. The taxi grade was -- 7 MR. VOGT: Looks like you're showing here, Perry, 8 that -- that if you do switchback -- it's not a real 9 switchback, but you're going -- you're going horizontal; then 10 you're dropping. 11 MR. HAVENAR: We're managing. 12 MR. VOGT: You can manage that grade of greater 13 than 3 percent? 14 MR. McKENZIE: Starts right there. And if you 15 sweep that, you'll get away from this huge grade elevation. 16 MR. VOGT: So, would that work? Have you guys done 17 preliminary work to say that that grade will actually work, 18 that you don't have the P.E. out here? 19 MR. HAVENAR: Yeah. 20 MS. HANNAH: Gosh, I hope so. Been a big challenge 21 here. 22 MR. HAVENAR: This might answer your question. 23 MR. VOGT: That's blank. 24 MR. HAVENAR: Not when you open it. (Laughter.) 25 MR. MOSER: Draw your own runway. 58 1 MR. VOGT: Yeah. 2 MR. MOSER: Draw your own taxiway. Do your own 3 analysis. 4 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Fred, I just want to bring up 5 one thing that is pretty far out of the box, but kind of goes 6 in line with this, is that there have been some people -- 7 we've been approached at the county level, trying to figure 8 out, is there any way to get us in a port of entry into 9 Kerrville? Basically, Mexican traffic coming in straight 10 into Kerrville. 11 MS. HANNAH: Customs. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Customs. Because they don't 13 like having to go into San Antonio, and that's what's keeping 14 a lot of those -- that part of the market going to San 15 Antonio. They would rather come elsewhere, from a speed -- 16 ease of going wherever they want to go out in the states. Is 17 that even, you know, something that we could, you know, look 18 at if it's feasible? I don't know -- I mean, there's 19 basically -- there's Kerrville, Uvalde, you know, are the 20 options to get off the border and out of San Antonio. And it 21 may be something to look at, because I think there's going to 22 be a continuing growing market of the jet aircraft coming in 23 out of Mexico. 24 MS. HANNAH: I think it would be a reasonable thing 25 for him to look up the numbers for you. You have to have a 59 1 duty agent. You can maybe tie off to San Antonio office, off 2 their permit office. You have to have a -- there's features 3 that you have to have, and at a certain point it would become 4 financially reasonable. 5 MR. KENNEDY: That's part of our marketing plan 6 right now, is to get a customs office here, and I've actually 7 looked into it with Customs, and that's exactly -- Michelle's 8 right. You work out of the San Antonio office, but you would 9 have to actually staff and house, and you have to pay for it 10 locally. So, we would have to figure out a way to pay for 11 it. One -- that's one of the things that we've included in 12 our marketing plan. We've got a similar situation right now, 13 two jets that we do -- two Eclipses out of Mexico, big 14 trailers. We were going to start doing maintenance, but they 15 have to go to San Antonio for customs first and then come 16 over. 17 COMMISSIONER LETZ: There's one of them that would 18 help pay -- underwrite the entire cost coming in the county. 19 MR. MOSER: What's that? What did you say? 20 COMMISSIONER LETZ: One of these individuals has 21 offered to underwrite a good part of the cost. 22 MR. MOSER: Oh. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Of the operation cost. 24 MS. HANNAH: Joey? It's been a while since I've 25 looked into this. Do they -- do they also have it to where 60 1 you can just give them enough -- I know for this arrival, 2 that they'll have an agent that comes up to meet the plane. 3 MR. KENNEDY: That can be done, but there's 4 specific facility requirements they want you to have, and it 5 also -- you also get into security issues. The type of 6 security that you have in your airport gets you. We have to 7 go to closing these gates and have badges, things like that, 8 more than likely. Unless it was -- 9 MR. MOSER: Can't do what you just did, off-load 10 10 rifles and a pickup truck out here. 11 MR. KENNEDY: You can still do it. 12 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Anyway, that's just something I 13 wanted to make sure that it's considered, because it's -- I'm 14 glad Joey's, you know, going down this road. And -- 15 MR. VOELKEL: Can do you this, Perry? Can you have 16 a -- 17 MR. HAVENAR: Yeah, we can provide in the 18 facilities chapter to look at what would be required to have 19 a future customs. 20 MR. VOGT: And on-demand would be the best way. 21 Have the facilities here, and then an on-demand, 20-minute 22 call, half-hour call, they can be here. 23 COMMISSIONER LETZ: Joey knows what we're talking 24 about. 25 MR. VOGT: I don't know the security required. I'm 61 1 sure there's heightened security. But we ought to be closing 2 gates, anyway. But I don't think it will preclude guns 3 coming off with the hunters and all that. 4 MR. HAVENAR: You'd end up with a specifically 5 secured area for them to be in while they're clearing 6 customs. 7 MR. VOGT: Okay. 8 MR. MOSER: I see. 9 MS. JOHNSON: You wouldn't have to secure the whole 10 thing. 11 MR. HAVENAR: No. 12 MR. McKENZIE: You have office space down there 13 that would be a great place, a secure area at the end of the 14 ramp. It's a perfect place. 15 MR. VOGT: So, Perry, figure that out. 16 MS. HANNAH: Define "secure." Secure as in a 17 fence? 18 MR. McKENZIE: Isolated, is what I meant. 19 MS. HANNAH: So -- 20 MR. KENNEDY: This speaks to the point I was 21 making, Perry, before the meeting, and Ilse and I were 22 talking about it. When we get into the marketing phase, to 23 me, it wouldn't make any sense whatsoever to really start 24 talking about marketing the airport if Dugosh and Mooney and 25 us -- 'cause we've got all different visions for the 62 1 development of the airport and marketing. Then none of it's 2 going to mesh together. We all kind of need to be on the 3 same page. And, obviously, we've got some similar goals, so 4 we're already kind of going the same direction, but as we 5 market the airport, seems to make sense that we all get 6 together and do it as a group. 7 MS. HANNAH: So, in that event, you would need to 8 have, you know, this customs office depicted as a safe, 9 secure area. Potential, identified and reserved. So, you 10 know -- 11 COMMISSIONER LETZ: I didn't mean to get you 12 offtrack. 13 MR. VOGT: No. Thank you, Commissioner. 14 MR. HAVENAR: Actually, TexDOT would have to do 15 that, because TexDOT's doing the ALP's. 16 MS. HANNAH: Really with your help, Perry. 17 MR. VOGT: Nice try, Perry. 18 MR. HAVENAR: You got to keep trying, right? So, 19 you were asking on this, is this doable? Can we do this? 20 And that's what -- and that's what we're showing, and what I 21 passed out to you now is on this alternative. On the 22 left-hand side of the first page there, you can see, just 23 like Bruce has said, the existing grade, and so what -- the 24 profile that's shown here is the profile along from the very 25 beginning all the way up around that curve of that taxi lane 63 1 to the end. So that's that profile you're looking at, and so 2 you can see that the -- above the existing ground grade, and 3 then you can see the profile for where it's got to be to 4 maintain that max profile, or a 2 percent profile on that 5 taxi lane so you can get those guys in and out of there. So, 6 it's doable. In this option, it's doable. The caveat with 7 this option is, those hangars and that ramp area on the left 8 side of this option are a much more costly venture than the 9 items on the right side of this alternative. 10 MR. VOGT: 'Cause they're cut and fill. 11 MR. HAVENAR: Because of the cut. So, you've got 12 in the -- in a profile of Section BB, Section BB was a 13 profile cut at the back side of that apron on the left side. 14 MR. MOSER: Use your laser, will you? 15 MR. HAVENAR: So it's section -- Section BB. The 16 profile was cut from the back corner of that hangar to the 17 back corner of this hangar. So, if you look at Section BB, 18 you can see there's seven and a half feet of cut right there. 19 MR. VOGT: Seven and a half feet. 20 MR. HAVENAR: Just -- and that's just to put -- 21 that's just to put the foundation of the hangar in. That 22 doesn't include any safety around it or room to put a 23 retaining wall or anything like that, okay? That's just to 24 put the hangar down. 25 MR. VOGT: So Alternative 2 is easier. 64 1 MR. HAVENAR: And Alternative 2, what we did was we 2 chose not to build in there. 3 MR. VOGT: Bingo. 4 MR. HAVENAR: Well, you can do that. I can -- 5 think you can do that with Alternative 1; you just don't 6 build this hangar, or you build one that is -- instead of 7 being this deep, it's a much narrower hangar. Then we've 8 only got 6 feet of cut, or -- or 5 and a half feet of cut in 9 there to get a 100 by 80 foot deep hangar in there. Maybe 10 it's three sections, and you put maybe a bit of smaller 11 aircraft in there, or you do not build there. Maybe what you 12 do is, instead of building either of these, -- 13 MR. VOGT: Right. 14 MR. HAVENAR: -- you take this one and you turn it 15 90 degrees; you put the front of it right there. 16 MR. VOGT: Right. 17 MR. HAVENAR: Like I say, there's all kinds of 18 different ways of doing this, of skinning this cat. 19 (Steve King rejoined the meeting.) 20 MR. HAVENAR: So -- but because of -- but because 21 of the contours up here in this area, and then the contours 22 that occur from right there where that is, up through here to 23 the fuel tanks, it makes this option a little more difficult. 24 We're almost -- to cut that -- to cut that in -- and, again, 25 you can see we've got it at an odd angle. We cut it in here 65 1 to keep off the taxi lane safety area, to keep it off of that 2 fence that goes around the fuel tanks, and then angle it back 3 up in here to be able to utilize the apron area in here. And 4 so that is -- in the drawings I've given you, that's the 5 right side of the first page, so you can see that profile 6 there. And then it is section -- the Section BB, you can see 7 that there's four and a half to five feet of cut to get to 8 this end, and then it starts getting a little easier. 9 Because as you come back around, the ground starts falling 10 back away, so you're actually going to have a bunch of fill 11 to come in here and do all this. You're going to have some 12 cut to do all of this. So, it's somewhat symbiotic, but I 13 still like this option better. It -- I think it arrives at 14 what you want to do at your airport better than the other one 15 does. It better utilizes this area. And I -- again, I think 16 you take -- you just take this hangar and you swing it 17 around, or you take this hangar and you build a more narrow 18 hangar so that maybe it's a two-bay hangar that's not as 19 deep, so you're not getting into as much cut there. 20 MR. VOGT: But by going back, we could show -- we 21 could show this full thing. 22 MR. HAVENAR: Absolutely. 23 MR. VOGT: ALP-slash-master plan. 24 MR. HAVENAR: Oh, yeah. 25 MR. VOGT: And then at decision time, if we can't 66 1 afford to do that, that's -- 2 MR. HAVENAR: And none of this layout is written in 3 blood. It's not written in mine, not written in yours. If 4 you want to change it, change it. 5 MR. MOSER: Well, it's written in blood in some 6 sense. It's better to show it, to maximize that area. 7 MR. HAVENAR: But once it's on the ALP, -- 8 MR. KING: We're good to go. 9 MR. HAVENAR: -- it's planned in a fashion. That 10 doesn't mean you can't change that plan when it comes to the 11 design. 12 MR. VOGT: Right. That's what I'm saying; we need 13 to do that. 14 MR. HAVENAR: My question on both these, on both 15 these alternates, is are we going to keep this? 16 MS. HANNAH: What is that? 17 MR. McKENZIE: Temporary parking lot. When we 18 built this terminal building, this is where the parking lot 19 was. We built a temporary parking lot up there. It's 20 continued to today, and it's used. But -- 21 MS. HANNAH: But it could be moved. 22 MR. McKENZIE: It's a temporary parking lot. 23 MR. HAVENAR: And this alternate, we could continue 24 with some of these type of hangars, or we could bring some of 25 these larger hangars over here and front them back onto this 67 1 taxi lane, let them come out again. 2 MS. HANNAH: You got to pretend that's not a -- you 3 look at the topography. 4 MR. HAVENAR: That's why I didn't put it on here, 5 'cause I didn't know how committed the airport was to keeping 6 that. 7 MS. BAILEY: Where are we talking about for the 8 parking? 9 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 10 MR. McKENZIE: We want to put a covered parking lot 11 right here. 12 MR. HAVENAR: Okay. 13 MR. McKENZIE: We need to talk about that. 14 MS. HANNAH: How about this undeveloped area? 15 MR. McKENZIE: No, that's across the road. They 16 can walk into the terminal. You can walk -- step right here 17 and you're into the building. 18 MR. HAVENAR: You knew we were going to talk about 19 that. I didn't know if that's where you guys were committed 20 to in terms of parking. 21 MR. McKENZIE: This can go away. That's the Air 22 Evac structure. These folks park -- they just built -- 23 that's a brand-new building. 24 MR. HAVENAR: Okay. 25 MR. McKENZIE: They park right there. But we can 68 1 build them a parking lot back here. 2 MR. MOSER: Right there. 3 MR. McKENZIE: And do away with this. That's 4 totally temporary. 5 MR. HAVENAR: One of the things that I still have 6 to revise on these alternates is I haven't been able yet to 7 get ahold of the fire marshal to know whether or not I've got 8 them separated far enough. 'Cause the fire marshal will tell 9 me if I've got to have 15 feet or 30 feet between structures. 10 MS. HANNAH: The only difference would be fireproof 11 walls or regular walls. 12 MR. HAVENAR: But I need to know what his standards 13 are before I -- 'cause if I put one here where they don't 14 meet his standards, we're going to be moving them later. 15 So -- 16 MR. KING: And the grade is such -- the grade's 17 okay there? 18 MR. HAVENAR: Yes, sir. 19 MR. McKENZIE: Here's the cut sheet. 20 MR. MOSER: Back from Oklahoma already? 21 MR. KING: No, I'm -- weather's not so great. 22 MR. HAVENAR: We've done some preliminary 23 engineering on that to see just exactly what that cut would 24 be back there, and -- 25 MS. HANNAH: Access would be the next thing. Have 69 1 it coming up behind the hangars. 2 MR. HAVENAR: These ones? 3 MS. HANNAH: All of them. 4 MR. HAVENAR: All of them. 5 MS. HANNAH: Well, you got the entrance road there, 6 so that's easy. You got this road up here. That would be 7 easy. From there, you know, only one that -- from there, you 8 could just -- 9 MR. HAVENAR: Only one we don't have are these two, 10 really. 11 MS. HANNAH: Well, but that could be into here. 12 MR. KING: You could just go right over there. 13 MS. HANNAH: There, but this -- this might go away, 14 but you still would need to have some sort of auto access. 15 MR. McKENZIE: That's a road. 16 MS. HANNAH: We can configure or straighten, 17 whatever, especially in that type of area. 18 MR. HAVENAR: If we straightened that out, that 19 opens up additional auto parking in here. 20 MS. HANNAH: Right. 21 MR. McKENZIE: We can put on it top of the sewer 22 line. That's still okay. 23 MR. HAVENAR: Don't want us to build on top of the 24 sewer line. 25 MR. McKENZIE: You can if it's all right with the 70 1 City. I don't know. They're under streets all over town, 2 so -- 3 MR. VOGT: That's what manhole covers are for. 4 MR. KING: What was the grade right here? What was 5 the grade on this coming up that thing? 6 MR. VOGT: You don't have a sheet? 7 MR. KING: I have it. 8 MR. HAVENAR: It's at a max grade at 12 percent. 9 MR. KING: Is it? 10 MR. HAVENAR: Yes, sir. It will run less down in 11 here. 12 MR. KING: Yeah. 13 MR. HAVENAR: But then it will be at 2 percent from 14 right in here all the way around this corner, and then it 15 flattens out. And so we'll have to -- we may end up even 16 having to build up a little bit in this area to keep it at a 17 level grade. And then we've got it set so that we go at a -- 18 once we go this direction, we go back up again at that max 2 19 percent grade. 20 MR. KING: Right. 21 MR. HAVENAR: To limit. 22 MR. KING: That's a new road right here? 23 MR. McKENZIE: No, that goes to the T-hangars. 24 MR. HAVENAR: That goes down there to this -- this 25 goes down there -- yeah, that's -- 71 1 MR. McKENZIE: T-hangars. 2 MR. KING: How do you get to Brinkman's hangar? 3 That hangar that's down -- 4 MR. HAVENAR: Down here? 5 MR. KING: Down on the bottom there. 6 MR. McKENZIE: This road. 7 MR. KING: How do you get to that hangar? 8 MR. McKENZIE: This is not exactly -- 9 MR. HAVENAR: That's not exactly -- 10 MR. McKENZIE: This continues on. This and this is 11 -- are one and the same. 12 MR. KING: So they still drive down the taxiway? 13 MR. McKENZIE: This is one and the same. 14 MR. HAVENAR: That would be something we need to 15 discuss in depth to make sure we continue to -- that we would 16 separate, then, the auto from the aircraft, and if we need to 17 give them -- give them some alternate access to their parking 18 down there. 19 MR. KING: Yeah. 20 MR. WALTERS: Have to do that; it's the only way to 21 get to it. 22 MR. KING: That -- 23 MR. McKENZIE: Because we've got a couple of folks 24 now that, when we get our water situation resolved, they want 25 to build hangars right here. 72 1 MR. VOGT: Well -- 2 MR. McKENZIE: Maybe. If we choose to lease them 3 the property. 4 MR. KING: Everybody wants to build on the easy 5 stuff. 6 MR. McKENZIE: They want to build it right on the 7 taxiway. 8 MR. HAVENAR: If that's the case, then we 9 definitely want to make this access such that it comes in 10 here and then goes down behind that. 11 MR. KING: Pretty good grade right over there. 12 MR. HAVENAR: Right in here? 13 MR. KING: Right there. Pretty good grade. 14 MR. HAVENAR: Oh, yeah. 15 MR. KING: To get from here to there, the hangars 16 down here. Isn't it, Corey? 17 MR. McKENZIE: It is. 18 MS. HANNAH: Couldn't that parking lot have a big 19 hangar on it? 20 MR. KING: Oh, yeah. You could put a big hangar 21 there. Got to be real careful about this property here. I 22 don't want to block -- there's land back over here. We've 23 discussed this before. I don't want to block -- I don't want 24 to do like -- if you've been in Northwest Regional, the 25 airport -- Northwest Regional up in Dallas, all the buildings 73 1 are next to the taxiway, and then they couldn't get to 2 anything else. You know, they got little cut-throughs to let 3 you taxi between a hangar to get to another row of hangars 4 stuck behind everything. 5 MR. VOGT: What Perry's doing now is telling you 6 what the best setup is, and when someone says, "Oh, I want to 7 build a hangar right off the side," well, you're not going to 8 be able to do that. You can build in this area over here 9 that we're going to do it, but there's -- if you give up -- 10 and Steve's right. You give up that little piece down there 11 where that scale is, you're -- you're screwing yourself 12 access-wise and option-wise for a lot of things. 13 MR. KING: What we talked about trying to 14 incentivize the building up in here is give people -- you 15 know, let's use some other people's money to get up in there. 16 To get up in there. And let's, you know, rebate them some 17 rent or rebate them something, you know. Give them -- you 18 know, that's what we talked about a long time ago. If we 19 would have got DuPerier to build his hangar up here, or we 20 would have got them to spend their money, they would have 21 probably put up 100,000 or something like that to build our 22 road up there. You know, to do our road up there. 23 MR. HAVENAR: Go back to that, so we can -- 24 MR. VOGT: All right. 25 MR. HAVENAR: You're talking -- those folks are 74 1 wanting to build right here? 2 MR. KING: Yeah. 3 MR. McKENZIE: Yes, sir. The other thing -- 4 MR. HAVENAR: If you let somebody do that, you're 5 cutting this guy off, unless you build another -- unless you 6 build alternate access to that, and then you're also cutting 7 off anything. If you wanted to build -- 8 MR. KING: Behind there. 9 MR. HAVENAR: -- a taxi lane back in this way so 10 that you can build hangars here or here, and you're cutting 11 that off. You're cutting your nose off to spite your face. 12 MR. KING: We had drawings for a little complex 13 right here at one time, remember? 14 MR. MOSER: Mm-hmm. 15 MR. KING: We did a little thing, put a taxiway 16 there, put some hangars on both sides. Obviously, we don't 17 have to approve that, but, you know, it's like everybody 18 wants to build on the low hanging fruit. You know, they all 19 want to take -- 20 MS. HANNAH: They're paying for it. 21 MR. KING: They want to take the cheap stuff, you 22 know, that's got a concrete access to it. You know, they 23 don't want to -- 24 MR. HAVENAR: Right. 25 MR. KING: -- end up with a bunch of stuff. 75 1 MR. KENNEDY: Only makes sense. It's all about 2 access. Either you provide the access for people to be able 3 to build back there, or incentivize for somebody to -- 4 MR. KING: To help us. To help us. 5 MR. KENNEDY: Right. Because as a developer, I 6 don't want to spend $200,000 to build a taxiway back to -- to 7 build a building, to open up an area for everybody -- for 8 everybody to compete. 9 MR. KING: But if we can get -- 10 MR. KENNEDY: It's got to be incentivized. 11 MR. KING: Got to be incentivized. Get you to 12 spend some money up there, and then abate your rent or 13 whatever and stuff. 14 MR. MOSER: Is that a word, "incentivized"? 15 MR. McKENZIE: No, it's not. 16 MR. KING: I like that word. 17 MR. MOSER: It's a good word. Needs to be a word, 18 but it's not a word. 19 MR. McKENZIE: This -- this is -- this is now 20 available to build on. We just put our water line down to 21 right here. 22 MR. KING: Some really good property. 23 MR. McKENZIE: There is some great property there. 24 A new taxi lane comes right through here -- taxiway. It's 25 right there. So, this is now opened up. 76 1 MS. HANNAH: Why don't we just continue on here? 2 MR. VOGT: We can. 3 MR. KING: There's some good property. There's at 4 least about four or five good hangar sites there. 5 MR. HAVENAR: No, that's -- we're in the inventory 6 and forecast part of things. We did some early alternatives. 7 MS. HANNAH: You're right, you did. So, we still 8 have ample time to do other creative things down here, and in 9 here. 10 MR. VOGT: That's what you're doing here today. 11 MR. McKENZIE: This is good stuff right here. 12 MR. HAVENAR: Those are -- the plan already was to 13 show continuation to this. And if you measure between these 14 two hangars, it's just wide enough to put a Group 2 taxi lane 15 up in between. But the grade work is my question. I don't 16 have survey information in there, and we didn't commission 17 our surveyor to provide a survey in this area for the cost we 18 got. 19 MR. KENNEDY: That's why we commissioned that 20 hangar the way we did. I moved it as close to the terminal 21 building as possible, because it would leave 100 foot of 22 taxiway access to get in between them. 23 MS. HANNAH: Did y'all have any GIS with San 24 Antonio doing work out here? Any aerial photography work 25 done through San Antonio? 77 1 MR. McKENZIE: Not to my knowledge. 2 MR. VOGT: Haven't you been doing aerial 3 photography for part of this master plan? 4 MS. HANNAH: Approaches only? Bruce, does that -- 5 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 6 MS. HANNAH: We include 2-foot contours in the area 7 that he's developing and on the other side. 8 MR. VOGT: That's good; 2 foot will work. 9 MS. HANNAH: Isn't that right? We gave you -- for 10 the area that you're looking at -- 11 MR. HAVENAR: We got -- we got -- actually got 12 1-foot contours in this -- roughly in this area, okay? And 13 that's why I was able to provide you, then, with the -- 14 knowing the grades are going to work. And then we also got 15 the same kind of thing in that area north of Mooney; we got 16 the same thing kind of contouring up there, so we know what 17 we were dealing with up in there as well. But with TexDOT 18 doing the ALP, they're doing the aerial photography, and 19 they'll get photogrammetry. Generally, we'll get 1-foot 20 contours on -- you'll have 1 foot based on photogrammetry for 21 all of this area, all of this area, as well as -- 22 MR. VOGT: You can -- is that as a development 23 side, Perry, right now? 24 MR. HAVENAR: Sure. 25 MR. VOGT: You know, 'cause you can't wait for that 78 1 1-foot -- the 1-foot contour there. 2 MR. HAVENAR: Right. I can always just show it. 3 MR. VOGT: Yeah. 4 MR. HAVENAR: It's the constructability of it that 5 I'm not going to be able to tell you. 6 MR. WALTERS: But we tried to know the 7 constructability of putting a 100-foot taxiway between "K" 8 and "L." 9 MR. HAVENAR: Yeah, to put a taxi lane through 10 here. Yeah, that's something -- I wouldn't want -- I 11 wouldn't want -- I mean, I can show you hangars up there all 12 day long, -- 13 MR. VOGT: No, but we need to know -- 14 MR. HAVENAR: -- but it's not going to do you any 15 good. 16 MR. VOGT: We need to know if it's feasible to -- 17 MR. HAVENAR: And that was -- 18 MR. VOGT: So you need more money, is what you're 19 really saying. 20 MR. HAVENAR: Well, I think -- I think you've got 21 more than enough space back in here -- 22 MR. MOSER: No kidding. 23 MR. WALTERS: But if I'm coming in wanting to build 24 a big hangar, I'd like -- I'd say now instead of -- 25 MR. HAVENAR: You'd be right here. 79 1 MR. WALTERS: Exactly. I mean, and especially if 2 you're going to ask me to improve the -- provide the taxiway 3 and spend $100,000 to get up there. I'd be -- well, that -- 4 what if I give you this spot? 5 MR. HAVENAR: Well, that would be better, too. But 6 I'm just saying, you know, it's just to say if that spot 7 isn't available. 8 MR. MOSER: Yeah. That's what we ought to address 9 for sure. 10 MS. HANNAH: And access taxiways are AIP-eligible. 11 If we show that y'all have that need, we would happily -- 12 happily -- 13 MR. KING: Show some grades there. There's a 14 pretty good grade. 15 MR. WALTERS: Just need to know if it's feasible. 16 MR. HAVENAR: And I don't think -- I think the 17 building in here -- that's my question. Like Steve is 18 saying, that the grade through here -- 19 MR. KING: You might be able to do about 30 minutes 20 worth of work and figure that out. It's the same grade as up 21 at -- 22 MR. KENNEDY: We had six- or seven-foot cuts from 23 the edge of the ramp to the back of Hangar 5. You can walk 24 back there and see it. 25 MR. HAVENAR: Five-foot cut to build that. 80 1 MS. HANNAH: Can I borrow this a second? Can you 2 -- I don't see it even potential in this -- developing down 3 this way, that there's some way -- 4 MR. HAVENAR: To get back. 5 MR. KING: That's what I originally said. I always 6 thought, really, the grade -- if you look at the grade, 7 really -- 8 MR. HAVENAR: It's accommodating. Yeah, it's 9 accommodating to come up through here. 10 MR. KING: That's really the only access, is back 11 this way, is through here. This is pretty big. You people 12 you can look at -- at it. We're talking about a parking lot 13 right now. This parking lot right here is probably 10 or 12 14 feet above where we are right now. 15 MS. HANNAH: You can charge more too, because it 16 would be, you know, hangars with a view. (Laughter.) 17 MR. KING: Yeah, they would definitely have a view. 18 Wouldn't have to use your engines when you taxi down. 19 MS. HANNAH: Put the brakes on. 20 (Multiple-voice discussion off the record.) 21 MR. HAVENAR: There's enough between this hangar -- 22 between "L" and here, and then you can get a taxi lane up 23 through here and turn in. And then you can build here or 24 here. 25 MR. WALTERS: But that's what you need to know. If 81 1 you won't get one through "K" and "L," then you need to plan 2 to make access to that property in the rear, to do it on the 3 east side of that. 4 MR. HAVENAR: Right. 5 MR. KING: Don't build a hangar right here. 6 There's a beautiful -- there's two great lots that are really 7 in the -- right here that are real flat, nice. But, you 8 know, you -- 9 MR. KENNEDY: Do the taxiway first. 10 MR. KING: -- you don't want to build a hangar 11 there and -- and block us off. 12 MR. HAVENAR: But if we don't -- and I think what 13 we're saying is, if we don't, if we can't get through "K" and 14 "L" because of grade and we need to come through here, we 15 need to know. We need to know that now so that we can plan 16 for this. 17 MR. KING: Yeah. 18 MR. HAVENAR: That's all. And that's all you're 19 saying. 20 MR. WALTERS: That's right. 21 MR. KING: Right. Corey's saying don't -- don't 22 show us -- Corey's saying don't show us places to build 23 hangars unless we can actually get to them. I mean, unless 24 it's constructability. Don't put boxes -- and, Joey, it 25 would be nice if this would show on the new taxiway, 'cause 82 1 it's not on there. That would clarify things. 2 MS. HANNAH: Let me just say, typically the master 3 plan, like Fred alluded to earlier, is typically a 20-year 4 plan. Your forecasts ferret out what the growth might be, 5 and all they're supposed to be tasked with is how to 6 accommodate that forecast. And then, of course, you can 7 always show future development areas. 8 MR. KING: Right. Right. 9 MS. HANNAH: And, you know, as things go, your 10 window, guesswork is good for five years, at best. So -- but 11 in this case, because you -- I mean, your biggest challenge 12 is your topography. That is your challenge. Maybe it's 13 cheaper to develop that side before this side, and we would 14 like to know that. 15 MR. HAVENAR: Is it cheaper to develop this before 16 this? Is that what you're asking? 17 MR. VOGT: East versus west. 18 MS. HANNAH: Put more hangars down there and apron 19 expansion to the south. Might be a better economic step than 20 going up -- up and behind. Of course, that only accommodates 21 one or two hangars. You want to open up a long-term area. 22 But -- 23 MR. HAVENAR: Right. 24 MS. HANNAH: So I'm thinking maybe we need to give 25 you another supplemental on your survey work to come back and 83 1 survey that section, that area, to whatever level we need it. 2 And I know that it's bad up north of the fuel system, but if 3 we've already built taxiways that takes you to that side, why 4 couldn't it go that way? 5 MR. KING: It could. 6 MR. HAVENAR: Yeah. And that's -- that's 7 eventuality, right. 8 MR. KING: That's very flat land up there. We 9 looked at that. We have some drawings. Bruce has got 10 drawings that we did. This is flat land and everything; it's 11 just odd-shaped. It goes right here. There's a big hill 12 right here. 13 MR. HAVENAR: Yeah. 14 MR. KING: There's about an eight-foot -- eight or 15 ten-foot cut right there you have to make. It goes, 16 actually, out to here. It goes right to there, but this is 17 really flat and high on top, we talked about putting hangars 18 up there. There is a construction road that they used during 19 the construction process, but we talked about using this land 20 up here and figuring out some way to put a taxiway -- 21 MS. HANNAH: I think I saw an alternative like 22 that. And maybe -- you know, maybe -- maybe the next thing 23 would be to do that expensive cut up the hill, but you could 24 go north and you could go south. 25 MR. HAVENAR: Mm-hmm. And then this road no longer 84 1 exists. 2 MS. HANNAH: Continues to go north. You're 3 driving -- you know, you're taxiing for half an hour, but... 4 MR. KING: Yeah, I think that's a good idea. 5 MR. HAVENAR: Anything hangared up in here taxiing 6 out -- 7 MS. HANNAH: Would come out -- 8 MR. KING: Down there. 9 MS. HANNAH: Through -- 10 MR. KING: Yeah. 11 MS. HANNAH: Well, they could -- if those were 12 T-hangars up there, wherever they go, they would really go to 13 the secondary. 14 MR. HAVENAR: Sure. 15 MS. HANNAH: Right? 16 MR. HAVENAR: Depends on the wind. 17 MS. HANNAH: Well, depends -- on the north end, 18 that hill is down in back of the hangars. That's the hill 19 right there. 20 MR. VOGT: So, for purposes of what we're trying 21 right now, we can get Perry to do some more one-, two-foot 22 contours, and look at the doability of those? 23 MR. HAVENAR: With the appropriate funding, sure. 24 MR. VOGT: With appropriate funding. 25 MS. HANNAH: Yeah. So give me -- do I have that in 85 1 our master plan, that we have additional supplemental 2 services and we will -- I'll get him to send us an estimate 3 for that. 4 MR. VOGT: Thank you. 5 MS. HANNAH: I will forward that to y'all, ask you 6 to look at that, and then get your 10 percent. Then we can 7 send them out. 8 MR. VOGT: Oh, 10 percent, yeah. 9 MS. HANNAH: Yeah. 10 MR. VOGT: Forgot about that. 11 MR. KING: Thank you for coming. See y'all later. 12 Y'all are doing a great job. 13 (Mr. King left the meeting.) 14 MR. VOGT: So we have to log him out again, back 15 in -- 16 MR. MOSER: He never was in. 17 MR. VOGT: He was never in. 18 MS. HANNAH: Did you catch that? He was never 19 here. 20 MR. VOGT: I got it. 21 MR. MOSER: Kathy? All right. I think Perry's 22 taking notes. That's good. 23 MS. HANNAH: I think you want to leave nothing 24 unturned, so to speak. 25 MR. VOGT: Right. 86 1 MS. HANNAH: That's just been your big challenge. 2 MR. WALTERS: So, based on this plan here, are we 3 saying we don't really even know if this is feasible because 4 we don't know the grade of this? 5 MR. HAVENAR: Right. I can draw alternatives -- 6 alternates up in there all day long, but I don't know if 7 it'll work. 8 MR. WALTERS: Yeah. Well -- 9 MS. HANNAH: Yet. 10 MR. HAVENAR: Right. 11 MR. VOGT: All right. Maybe we ought to move on, 12 since you're talking about detailed kind of stuff, and we 13 have a lot of -- we don't know here right now. And -- 14 MR. HAVENAR: So, let's go back -- let's go back to 15 the west side. 16 MR. VOGT: Okay. You have a T-hangar demand right 17 now. 18 MR. MOSER: Roger that. 19 MR. HAVENAR: You have people knocking on your 20 door, calling you on the phone daily, -- 21 MR. MOSER: Got a need for revenue. 22 MR. HAVENAR: -- at least weekly asking for where 23 you got a T-hangar open, right? 24 MR. MOSER: Right. You saw your survey; 3.894, 25 whatever it was, said that was one of the problems. Right? 87 1 MR. HAVENAR: Okay. So -- so, based on those 2 facts, does it make sense that the next development for 3 hangars be on the west side, or be on the east side? Knowing 4 that the demand right now is for primarily T-hangars. Am I 5 right? Or am I -- 6 MR. McKENZIE: That's correct. 7 MR. MOSER: That's correct. 8 MR. HAVENAR: So, you can use 40 T-hangars today. 9 MR. MOSER: Right. 10 MR. HAVENAR: Okay. Where do you want T-hangars? 11 MR. COWDEN: The reason we went over there was the 12 grade. 13 MR. MOSER: We had the grade, and we didn't have 14 the fire water flow system over there -- over here. We had 15 it there. We said that's ready; it's not going to screw up 16 anything. 17 MR. HAVENAR: Uh-huh. 18 MR. MOSER: Let's go look at that first. So, these 19 are the reasons. Now we got water over here. 20 MR. HAVENAR: Uh-huh. 21 MR. MOSER: Okay? So that's not an issue. Okay. 22 So, it's -- you know, it's -- you can probably argue either 23 way. Put T-hangars over here or T-hangars over there. I 24 don't know what the right answer is. 25 MR. VOGT: Well, I think Michelle -- I think 88 1 TexDOT -- not Michelle, but TexDOT's probably going to 2 support the T-hangars on the B-1, B-2 runway. 3 MR. HAVENAR: Mm-hmm. 4 MR. VOGT: And add this corporate -- 5 MR. MOSER: I think it makes a lot of sense. 6 MR. VOGT: -- over here. So, building T-hangars 7 here doesn't make any sense to me. Put them over there by 8 where we -- 9 MR. HAVENAR: Right. 10 MR. VOGT: But the surcharge, that all leveled out, 11 or still trying to level it out. 12 MR. MOSER: 75 percent? 13 MR. VOGT: Your job, Perry, is to robustly fill 14 that area out, but in reality, we're going to -- we, as a 15 board, are going to pick a lesser option, 'cause we can't 16 afford all of that right now. 17 MR. HAVENAR: Right. 18 MR. VOGT: We can fit the 40-plus T-hangars and 40, 19 50 T-hangars in a lot of these depictions right now. 20 MR. MOSER: Mm-hmm. 21 MR. VOGT: Just a question of how much we really 22 want to show on our ALP, on our master plan for future 23 development. Do we want to put them right there on the west 24 side, or do we want to put it on the -- add it right there on 25 the west side? 89 1 MR. HAVENAR: Want to do it more like -- 2 MR. VOGT: I like this one. That doesn't -- I like 3 that one better, because -- right now, because it doesn't 4 affect that paint locker, which is -- we're going to be all 5 old people before that thing gets resolved, and yet we get 6 the number of T-hangars we need right now. And TexDOT's not 7 going to stab us or not going to stab themselves when we look 8 at that kind of two -- two stubs out there to the other 9 parallel taxiway. That's doable financially right now. 10 MR. MOSER: You know, Fred, this is where the paint 11 hangar is right here. 12 MR. VOGT: Yeah. 13 MR. MOSER: We're going to know that by a month 14 from now. 15 MS. BAILEY: December. 16 MR. MOSER: So that's something else to factor. 17 MR. COWDEN: Well, we'll know by Christmas. I 18 don't believe that, but -- 19 MR. VOGT: I'm going to bet you a nickel they're 20 going to say, "We want the paint hangar," and we're going to, 21 as a board, say, "We want you to keep the paint hangar." If 22 you're not going to mitigate the environmental portion of it, 23 it will always be a paint locker there. 24 MR. MOSER: You can do something -- let's just 25 assume that you're -- that that's correct. That -- I forgot 90 1 how far the Mooney property -- I don't know if Lisa remembers 2 that -- Ilse, I mean. Excuse me. 3 MS. BAILEY: We had some conversation. I don't 4 really remember. 5 MR. MOSER: But the paint hangar is right at the 6 end of this thing here. Mooney property goes somewhere over 7 here, so you can do something. Perry, that says if you had 8 this kind of concept -- you had started with this, you may be 9 able to still show this kind of cross -- 10 MR. HAVENAR: Access, yeah. You don't have to do 11 both of those today. 12 MR. MOSER: That's right. 13 MR. HAVENAR: The furthest north one first. 14 MR. MOSER: Right. 15 MR. HAVENAR: Then when the paint hangar gets 16 mitigated, it's gone, then you can build this other one and 17 flesh in the rest of it. 18 MR. MOSER: You can start with something like this, 19 where we have these -- and this gives us 30, or something 20 like that, T-hangars. And then leave that where you can 21 develop -- 22 MR. HAVENAR: I can show -- I mean, we can take 23 this off and add that parallel taxiway to it, and then add 24 those box hangars all to your ALP second. 25 MR. VOGT: Yes. 91 1 MR. McKENZIE: That's what we want to do. 2 MR. HAVENAR: But you don't necessarily build it 3 all at once. 4 MR. MOSER: Right. 5 MS. HANNAH: It can also be shown depicted rapidly, 6 but -- just a short time, this intermediate, and that matches 7 your forecast, and the rest is ultimate. Just -- 8 MR. MOSER: Precisely. 9 MR. HAVENAR: In terms of this alternate, I can do 10 the same thing in terms of dual access to this. 11 MR. MOSER: Okay, yeah. 12 MR. HAVENAR: I can take the one out of the center, 13 push it off to the right. 14 MR. MOSER: Use your pointer. 15 MR. HAVENAR: I'll take this out of the center, and 16 instead have one that comes across here, and one that comes 17 across here. 18 MR. MOSER: There you go. 19 MR. HAVENAR: And then, if we need to for grade 20 purposes and property purposes, shorten these hangars up 21 maybe a little bit so that there's access around the back 22 side of this. 'Cause I hate that. 23 MR. MOSER: Right. 24 MR. HAVENAR: I hate being in this hangar. 25 MR. MOSER: Yeah. 92 1 MR. HAVENAR: Then somebody's got their airplane 2 pulled out here blocking me in. 3 MR. MOSER: Right. 4 MR. VOGT: Yep, do it. 5 MR. MOSER: That's good. 6 MR. HAVENAR: So do you prefer, then, the hangars 7 -- the T-hangars that run parallel to your runway, or 8 parallel with the available property? 9 MS. HANNAH: Is there any advantage to 10 perpendicular or long, visually? Or -- 11 MR. HAVENAR: In this climate, no. 12 MR. VOGT: Talking about Texas climate? Or -- 13 MS. HANNAH: Yeah. Any advantage whatsoever? 14 MR. VOGT: Aesthetics, are you talking about? 15 MS. HANNAH: Aesthetically or visibility or -- 16 MR. HAVENAR: I don't think any of that really 17 matters. 18 MR. VOGT: Well, it does to Michelle. 19 MS. HANNAH: I just threw the question out. 20 MR. HAVENAR: If I'm doing it, I like -- I like it 21 being -- I like the development being parallel to the runway 22 versus -- 23 MR. MOSER: Yeah, 'cause -- flip that last one up. 24 Because I agree with you. Keep going -- yeah. See? 25 MR. HAVENAR: I mean, this isn't bad, but I don't 93 1 know. It's not square, but the property isn't. 2 MR. MOSER: That's true, too. 3 MR. HAVENAR: You know, so -- 4 MR. MOSER: This gets more -- 5 MR. HAVENAR: It's really what you want. I think 6 this one, in terms of the initial development, I think you 7 can get more -- 8 MR. MOSER: Mm-hmm. 9 MR. HAVENAR: -- out of it. If you wanted to build 10 all of these, it's very, very doable. There's going to be 11 some fill back here. 12 MR. MOSER: That's the other thing, Bruce. We 13 didn't fill from -- 14 MR. COWDEN: You can always -- 15 MR. HAVENAR: The fill is -- 16 MR. McKENZIE: We did not -- 17 MR. HAVENAR: The fill is back into -- 18 MR. MOSER: Right about here, yeah. So, all this 19 has got to be filled. 20 MR. McKENZIE: That's correct. 21 MR. VOGT: We got the fill. We just need to drag 22 it over there. 23 MR. KENNEDY: One more thing you might consider 24 when you're doing this layout. You might consider assigning 25 a specific area for the purpose of a fuel system, because 94 1 right now, anything you develop on this side, all the 2 self-service fuel, the bay over here -- 3 MR. HAVENAR: Right. 4 MR. KENNEDY: And I'd also consider the possibility 5 of moving the self-service system over there some, but laying 6 it out. You might want to leave some room someplace for a 7 potential future fuel -- most of the hangar guys would just 8 as soon fill self-serve. In hindsight, I wish we hadn't put 9 this one where we did, but we didn't really have anything 10 where things were going to be developed. 11 MR. VOGT: Can we have an automated fueling 12 station? Is that what you're saying? As opposed to -- 13 MR. KENNEDY: Just set aside a piece of land. 14 MR. VOGT: Why? You don't think people are going 15 to be storing gas? 16 MR. KENNEDY: Be a lot more convenient. Right now 17 they have to taxi all the way over there to get to it across 18 the ramp. Like I say, mingling a whole lot of traffic. 19 MR. VOGT: Very good point. 20 MS. HANNAH: I think an FBO sort of center -- you 21 know, public area on that side needs to be reserved as well. 22 MR. VOGT: Is that something you'd be willing to 23 invest in, Joey? A fueling system on that site? 24 MR. KENNEDY: Sure. To be honest with you, I 25 would -- if that's the -- most of your G.A. type of stuff is 95 1 on that side over there anyway. If I had it all to do over 2 again, I'd put that system that we have down there anyway 3 where it's at; it's on the edge of the ramp, and at the time 4 there was none of this plans to develop on that side of the 5 airport or anything. So -- 6 MR. HAVENAR: Let's say we took this center hangar, 7 and took that end bay and converted that end bay to a small 8 office with a restroom, a telephone. And then right here, 9 we've got -- we could push out a little -- half Mooney land 10 out here, and then put in a -- you can get them -- they are 11 low profile tanks, so it's a 1,500 gallon, low profile. It's 12 not more than 3 feet tall. Contains 1,500 gallons with a 13 24-hour pump system on it. 14 MR. VOGT: Yep. Thank you. 15 MR. WALTERS: Got to have restrooms over there. 16 MS. HANNAH: Yes. 17 MR. HAVENAR: That's why -- I'm trying to marry -- 18 MR. MOSER: Yeah. 19 MR. HAVENAR: -- ideas here. So -- 20 MS. HANNAH: Plus how that fueling truck is going 21 to get up there and out. 22 MR. VOGT: Out on 27 and back in. 23 MR. HAVENAR: Well, but it's a 1,500 gallon low 24 profile. Every night before Joey's guys go home, he fills 25 that tank up out of his truck. 96 1 MR. KENNEDY: I've actually got a self-serve system 2 already here, too. 3 MR. HAVENAR: Right. 4 MR. KENNEDY: That really doesn't make sense to be 5 over here with the number that's necessary. With all the 6 G.A. stuff, we'll probably move the existing system. It's -- 7 I mean, it's a good system. 8 MR. McKENZIE: She's talking about how are you 9 going to get to it to refuel. 10 MR. KENNEDY: Oh, same way we do everything else. 11 Same way an airplane would get to it. Taxiway. It doesn't 12 have to come up the access road. I mean, to fuel this one, 13 we drive up the ramp just like we do fueling. I wouldn't 14 spend money -- 15 MR. WALTERS: And you fill out -- 16 MR. KENNEDY: We fill it out of refuelers. 17 MR. McKENZIE: Exactly. 18 MR. KENNEDY: I wouldn't plan on spending money to 19 have access with a semi truck. You don't do -- even if all 20 that area was full of box hangars and T-hangars, you wouldn't 21 -- you wouldn't do 5,000 gallons a month. 22 MR. WALTERS: Right. 23 MR. KENNEDY: We'd do our G.A., we fill our tanks, 24 and people at the control checks daily. 25 MS. HANNAH: Who'd you say was going to be maybe 97 1 moving over there? Someone's coming in? 2 MR. McKENZIE: I just said people inquire about -- 3 MS. HANNAH: Didn't you say someone was looking at 4 building? Didn't Commissioner Letz say the U.S.D.A.? 5 MR. McKENZIE: That's off the property. That's -- 6 MR. COWDEN: This is their property right here. 7 MR. MOSER: That's U.S.D.A. property? 8 MR. COWDEN: Yeah. One of our lease proposals was 9 to take this back in addition to the paint shop, too. So 10 there could be more space over there. 11 MR. MOSER: Right. 12 MR. McKENZIE: We'll know that shortly, we hope. 13 MR. COWDEN: Yeah. 14 MR. HAVENAR: So, for the purposes of this 15 discussion, we want to stick with primarily this layout, with 16 the additional parallel taxiway, the box hangars along it, 17 showing this end of this hangar as public facility with 18 restroom, telephone, that kind of thing, and then -- 19 MS. HANNAH: Auto access. 20 MR. MOSER: Perry -- 21 MR. HAVENAR: Auto parking, all that down here. 22 We've got a road in here for the guys that are in that 23 hangar. 24 MR. McKENZIE: They park in the T-hangars. 25 MR. HAVENAR: They park in the T-hangars regardless 98 1 of how many parking lots you give them. 2 MS. HANNAH: You don't -- 3 MR. McKENZIE: They're not going to park anywhere 4 but their T-hangar. 5 MS. HANNAH: Appease me and still show a road 6 behind up to those box hangars, because there -- if -- where 7 the -- 8 MR. COWDEN: That's what we're talking about, that 9 road. 10 MR. HAVENAR: You're going to make me take away one 11 row of T-hangars because the grades won't accommodate it. 12 MS. HANNAH: Going back -- 13 MR. HAVENAR: Grades won't accommodate it. 14 MS. HANNAH: A car can go up a 35 percent. 15 MR. HAVENAR: Have you seen the grade over there? 16 From right here to the fence, it drops 15 feet. 17 MS. HANNAH: Show me that other -- 18 MR. MOSER: Show me the first one. 19 MS. HANNAH: That. Okay. 20 MR. MOSER: No, keep going, back to your previous 21 one. 22 MS. HANNAH: That's pretty much it. 23 MR. MOSER: There. Right there. Right there, 24 that's the one. 25 MR. VOGT: Right there. You got a parking lot 99 1 here, and not only that; we like the idea that you said to 2 move this over here, and you'd have an access -- 3 MR. MOSER: Yeah, right. 4 MR. VOGT: Secondary stub going up there. 5 MR. MOSER: See, that's what I like. 6 MR. VOGT: I like this better. 7 MR. MOSER: I do too. I do too. 8 MR. VOGT: Then you avoid -- 9 MR. MOSER: Just don't put this -- 10 MR. VOGT: You don't have to have this till later. 11 We don't have the fill anyway. 12 MR. WALTERS: That plan's impacted by the existing 13 paint shop, though. 14 MR. MOSER: No. 15 MR. HAVENAR: Doesn't have to be. 16 MR. VOGT: Well, doesn't have to be. 17 MR. McKENZIE: Shorten the hangars. 18 MR. MOSER: Start here. Then this is -- this is -- 19 the paint shop is right here. 20 MR. HAVENAR: Right. 21 MR. MOSER: So, you want to do -- 22 MR. HAVENAR: So what do you is start with -- the 23 paint shop is here. You start with the taxi lanes such that 24 it comes across here, and it's predicated on the location of 25 the paint shop. And then the T-hangar goes this way. 100 1 MR. MOSER: Right. 2 MR. HAVENAR: Then you've got enough space to go 3 around the back side of that T-hangar as well. And then you 4 just build that in here, and then once the paint hangar goes 5 away, then you can start building this way with your 6 T-hangars as well. 7 MR. COWDEN: Perry, if I have this hangar on the 8 very end over there next to T-1, how do I get over there to 9 it? I have to walk? 10 MR. HAVENAR: You would drive your car in right 11 here, and there's a gate. And you drive right up this 12 taxiway, and you -- 13 MR. McKENZIE: Drive right down there, put your 14 pickup in there. 15 MR. HAVENAR: Pull into your parking lot. 16 MR. VOGT: You'll be off the board by that time. 17 MR. COWDEN: I'll be dead by then. (Laughter.) 18 MR. HAVENAR: 'Cause, like I was telling Michelle, 19 you can see the towers right in there that we had done. I 20 mean, it's 15 feet from the fence to right there, and it's 21 probably 20 feet by the time we get to the back side of that 22 hangar. 23 MR. MOSER: Right. 24 MR. HAVENAR: It drops off in a hurry. 25 MS. HANNAH: Hey, it's potential. We can plan 101 1 anything we want. 2 MR. VOGT: That's right. That's a planner saying 3 that now. 4 MR. MOSER: This is waterfront property here. 5 MS. HANNAH: Waterfront. 6 MR. MOSER: 'Cause the creek comes right down 7 through here. 8 MR. HAVENAR: So we like this -- this layout 9 better, the T-hangars, shifting it over the way we've 10 discussed, and then having one end being -- having that first 11 end being that -- 12 MR. McKENZIE: Public facility. 13 MR. HAVENAR: -- public facility. 14 MR. MOSER: How many T-hangars do you have here? 15 MR. HAVENAR: I don't remember. Which one are we 16 looking at now? 17 MR. MOSER: It says right there. 18 MR. VOGT: Where am I? 19 MR. MOSER: Get back up to "F." 20 MR. WALTERS: It's important, like you said, to 21 have flow around all of the buildings. 22 MR. HAVENAR: Yeah. I just despise airports I go 23 to that I can't get around the T-hangar; I'm stuck. 24 MS. HANNAH: Got to have a circular flow. 25 MR. HAVENAR: I hate that. 102 1 MR. VOGT: So, in this option we're adding -- oh, 2 that number's not right. Yeah, it is. So we're adding -- 3 blah, blah, blah -- 88 T-hangar spaces in this option. 4 MR. MOSER: That's all of these though. 5 MR. HAVENAR: Correct. 6 MR. MOSER: So you've got 10, 20 -- you got 15 -- 7 you got 15 -- you got 25 there. 8 MR. HAVENAR: We've got this so that you're going 9 to get -- 10 MR. MOSER: Probably 25 T-hangars in here. 11 MR. HAVENAR: There's enough hangars shown on this 12 option for probably between 125 and 130 aircraft. 13 MR. McKENZIE: But just T-hangars that were up 14 there now, though. 15 MR. HAVENAR: Just the T-hangars that are there now 16 are 88. There are 88 units for T-hangars. 17 MR. MOSER: And you could -- if we said big 18 aircraft over here, T-hangar kind of stuff here, this can all 19 be T-hangars. 20 MR. HAVENAR: That would be one way, yeah. 21 MR. MOSER: Right. So this whole thing could just 22 be T-hangars. 23 MR. KENNEDY: What he's saying though, Tom, 24 T-hangars, typically domestic -- I don't know if there's room 25 to get out of the back side along those, along the taxiway. 103 1 MR. HAVENAR: There's not. You'd have to make -- 2 they'd virtually be box hangars. 3 MR. MOSER: I see. 4 MR. HAVENAR: Because they'd just be fronted onto 5 that. 6 MR. MOSER: Yeah. 7 MR. HAVENAR: You realize we've shown paving the 8 entire thing in front of those. You don't have to do that. 9 You can give them -- you can pave separate drives to each 10 hangar onto that parallel taxiway. But -- 11 MS. HANNAH: Maintenance is not easy. 12 MR. HAVENAR: -- maintenance is a pain in the butt. 13 Sorry, you don't have to type that. 14 MR. McKENZIE: It's already down. 15 MS. HANNAH: In the rear end. 16 MR. VOGT: Okay. 17 MR. HAVENAR: So we're going to go with this one, 18 only with the modifications we discussed. 19 MR. McKENZIE: To include the fuel farm. 20 MR. HAVENAR: Add a fuel farm, and in this one, I 21 got to be a little more inventive where I'm going to put 22 that. 23 MR. MOSER: Right. 24 MR. HAVENAR: I'm thinking right now -- 25 MR. McKENZIE: Right there. That's exactly right. 104 1 MR. MOSER: That's where the paint hangar is. 2 MR. HAVENAR: Yeah. But -- 3 MR. MOSER: Well, all this says is -- 4 MR. HAVENAR: The fuel farm's not going to go over 5 here right away, either. It's going to be -- it's going to 6 be a momentum thing. We're going to move the fuel farm once 7 there's enough demand on that side of the field to say, "Hey, 8 we got to have fuel over here." 9 MR. VOGT: You got to show it on the -- yeah, for 10 purpose of this, don't show it. So you're going to go -- go 11 to Google Earth and go figure out where that paint hangar is, 12 and -- but I think we can show that paint hangar and the 13 admin. area and the heads and stuff. 14 (Low-voice discussion off the record.) 15 MR. HAVENAR: In terms of the initial development 16 that -- that TexDOT needs to know, we're going to build those 17 first two T-hangars in the next -- year? The next six 18 months? 19 MR. VOGT: Yes. That the -- 20 MR. MOSER: When we laid this out, we said we were 21 going to have January 1st cash flowing, but you were going to 22 start March the 1st, and that didn't happen. So -- 23 MR. VOGT: What TexDOT wants to know right now is 24 that we're going to build a configure -- we're going to have 25 this configured such to do those two stubs, I guess. 105 1 MR. HAVENAR: Yeah, we'll build the stubs and two 2 12-unit T-hangars. 3 MR. VOGT: Right, and then the rest of it's 4 proposed. 5 MR. McKENZIE: That's my thought, if that's what 6 the board agrees to. 7 MR. VOGT: Sure. As long as you include everything 8 we talked about, Perry, so we -- we have it on our ALP and on 9 our master plan. 10 MR. HAVENAR: I don't remember what we talked 11 about. 12 MR. VOGT: I know you don't. But Kathy does, and 13 she'll be glad to give you a transcript of it. 14 MR. HAVENAR: Keep me honest. Moving your existing 15 avgas facility over there, I got to pay attention to how tall 16 it is and where I put it. 17 MR. KENNEDY: That -- like you say, if need be, put 18 a low profile as a possibility too, 'cause we had -- 19 actually, when we designed this system, the large tank, the 20 5,000 gallon tank was actually intended for avgas -- I mean 21 for jet fuel, ultimately to have 24-hour jet fuel 22 availability, which would be better suited here, so I would 23 actually put in a smaller tank anyway. 24 MR. HAVENAR: Using 1,500 -- 25 MR. KENNEDY: Five. 500 is fine. Just plan on the 106 1 low profile. 2 MR. VOGT: Should have said Dancing With The Stars. 3 That's my wife's favorite show. You're not writing that 4 down, are you? You are? 5 MS. BAILEY: She has to write it all down. 6 MR. VOGT: I said that under my breath. 7 MS. BAILEY: She's actually certified to and sworn 8 to write down everything, and if she doesn't, it's her neck. 9 MR. KENNEDY: That's where the existing T-hangars 10 are, anyway. 11 MR. HAVENAR: Yeah. 12 MR. VOGT: Can we move on, for the purpose of this 13 discussion, to master planning? Instead of engineering and 14 design? 15 MR. COWDEN: Make the kickoff of the Monday night 16 football game? 17 MR. HAVENAR: So, as far as the east side, then, of 18 the two, that one or this one, I think the -- this one is 19 more versatile, and occupies more of the space better. And 20 we're going to forego worrying about this auto parking. I'm 21 going to add some -- either there will be one large hangar or 22 two large, if I can get them in there, and I may have one 23 that fronts that way and one that fronts this way if I can 24 fit it in there behind that end hangar on your apron now. I 25 don't know if I can do that or not. I don't know how big I 107 1 want to fit in there. But then we're also going to talk 2 about -- we're also talking about straightening out that 3 road, adding in some additional parking -- yeah, right there. 4 That's right. That's all I wanted to point out. So, if I 5 got that -- am I clear? 6 MR. VOGT: Yes. 7 MR. COWDEN: Mm-hmm. 8 MR. WALTERS: I think you can also take off that 9 building that's coming off that auto parking as well. 10 MR. MOSER: Here? 11 MS. BAILEY: That's Air Evac's new building. 12 MR. McKENZIE: That's Air Evac's new building. 13 They just built that. 14 MR. WALTERS: Okay. 15 MR. HAVENAR: That's up to y'all. If you want to 16 leave it there, that's fine. I can plan on putting a hangar 17 there if you want me to. 18 MR. WALTERS: It's just for planning purposes. I'd 19 put a box there. 20 MR. HAVENAR: Yeah. We can put another hangar in 21 there. 22 MS. HANNAH: Do they have -- 23 MR. HAVENAR: What's their lease term? 24 MS. HANNAH: What have they got? 25 MR. McKENZIE: They keep a helicopter right on the 108 1 ramp. 2 MS. HANNAH: Is that just an office? 3 MR. MOSER: That's where their crew and office is. 4 MR. McKENZIE: They live there. 5 MR. VOGT: If you don't have it there, you have to 6 have it somewhere else. We have a lease for them to provide 7 that living quarters. 8 MS. HANNAH: Yeah. So, would it fit right there? 9 MR. MOSER: Right there -- I mean, for future, you 10 could show a relocation. 11 MR. McKENZIE: Yeah, true. 12 MR. MOSER: You're going to do some additional 13 survey in this region. 14 MR. HAVENAR: Yes, sir, we'll put together a plan 15 for doing some additional survey in that area so we know what 16 we're working with. 17 MR. VOGT: Including the taxiway possibility 18 between those two hangars. 19 MR. HAVENAR: Yeah. 20 MS. HANNAH: And to the north, right, of this? 21 MR. HAVENAR: Yeah, we're going to go all the 22 way -- we'll get enough -- we'll get enough survey that it'll 23 go from those two flat lots that Steve was talking about all 24 the way down behind where you're talking about putting the 25 parking in, to include access between the two hangars. I 109 1 think that covers it all. 2 MR. MOSER: Okay. 3 MS. HANNAH: Tell you what; the airport looks so 4 different driving up this time. It really has a different 5 look to it. All this -- 6 MR. MOSER: Good or bad? 7 MS. HANNAH: Good. And then this huge monstrous 8 fence. I keep waiting to see a tower somewhere with rifles. 9 (Laughter.) 10 MR. HAVENAR: I think that with that, I think 11 we're -- I'm done. 12 MR. MOSER: Very good, Perry. 13 MR. HAVENAR: Unless y'all have lots of questions 14 for me. 15 MR. WALTERS: Very nice. Good job. 16 MR. COWDEN: Good job. 17 MR. MOSER: Good job. 18 MR. HAVENAR: The next thing is, we're going to get 19 supplemental agreements set up for the additional surveying. 20 We're going to push out some preferred alternatives and send 21 those out to you so you can look at those, and finalize the 22 facility requirements chapter and the alternatives chapter, 23 and have it to you the first week of January, so that -- 24 maybe we'll send you a Christmas present. 25 MS. HANNAH: I don't think they're going to be able 110 1 to have all the things done by then. 2 MR. HAVENAR: That's my caveat. 3 MS. HANNAH: It would just be additional -- 4 MR. HAVENAR: I mean, Aaron at Voelkel -- those 5 guys are quick. I mean, we called them up, asked them to go 6 down to Junction and do something for us. They did it two 7 days after we asked them to, so they're pretty hungry. They 8 did a good, good job; really did a good job on the survey 9 work. They've gave us exactly what we asked for, and got a 10 good -- exactly what we needed. So, if -- 11 MR. VOGT: Do you have some time after we adjourn 12 to -- I wrote a lot of things down, what I saw here, Perry. 13 I just want to go over them. I may be misunderstanding what 14 you said or meant to say, but there's nothing that the board 15 needs to take action on, so you and I can do that one-on-one? 16 MR. HAVENAR: Sure. 17 MR. VOGT: With Bruce. Bruce? Okay. Do we have 18 anything more to come in front of this portion of our board? 19 MR. McKENZIE: This is it. 20 MR. VOGT: Do I hear a motion to adjourn? 21 MR. MOSER: So moved. 22 MR. VOGT: Second? 23 MR. COWDEN: Second. 24 MR. VOGT: Any discussion? All in favor, say 25 "Aye." 111 1 (The motion carried by unanimous vote, 4-0.) 2 MR. VOGT: Thank you. 3 (Airport Board meeting adjourned at 12:36 p.m.) 4 - - - - - - - - - - 5 6 7 8 STATE OF TEXAS | 9 COUNTY OF KERR | 10 I, Kathy Banik, official reporter for Kerr County, 11 Texas, do hereby certify that the above and foregoing is a 12 true and complete transcription of my stenotype notes taken 13 at the time and place heretofore set forth. 14 DATED at Kerrville, Texas, this 22nd day of November, 15 2010. 16 _______________________________ Kathy Banik, Texas CSR # 6483 17 Expiration Date: 12/31/12 Official Court Reporter 18 Kerr County, Texas 700 Main Street 19 Kerrville, Texas 78028 Phone: 830-792-2295 20 21 22 23 24 25